View Full Version : The best European gamefishing boat/hull?
Following on from something mentioned in another thread, I'd like to ask
- Which European made hulls have impressed you the most (whether in seaworthiness/ride quality, build construction, fuel consumption, etc)
- Which European designed boats do you find best laid out for big game fishing?
Moderators please feel free to move this to another forum like the boat owning or boat fishing forum if you think more appropriate
Regards
P.
Captain Spike
25-10-2008, 19:53
I've always had a bit of a soft spot for the Aquabell 33 Mediterranean sport fisher.
Could feel myself leaning towards a Striker, never fished from one, just like the look of them and like ally boats.
TomBettle
25-10-2008, 21:46
You'll probably hate me for it, but the fishing based Rodmans have had a little thought put into them and cover blue water and general angling pretty well.
Hulls are good, have a feeling of luxury, big game layout with flybridge helm aft, but still space for a whole bunch to fish.
Roddy Hays
26-10-2008, 01:20
Boats I have fished on or owned :
Aquabells - good seaboats, although wet, and low to the water for handling fish. Good engine boxes for relaxing on, but no traditional cockpit tackle stowage and interiors cramped. Flybridge helmchair too far forward.
Striker - aluminium boats which present a different set of maintenance problems for the unwary. Poor engine rooms on older models, and too heavy for the horsepower put in most European versions. Traditional gamefishing cockpit layout and lots of wood inside most of the ones I have been on. Some Strikers still around in some places that really should have been put down years ago ! Moderate sea-boats.
Mitchell - the late Ron Cowling's boat is the only Mitchell I have seen as a game-boat, and though not designed for the job Ron caught a lot of fish with it. Solidly built, good sea-keeping and a great cockpit, it lacks dedicated tackle stowage and a second engine !
Rodman - Spanish built hulls with a reputation for seaworthiness. I have been on several and know people who own them and the general consensus seems to be that they are adequate for the job but have quirks that make no sense. They also don't have great cockpits and have a moderate build quality.
Nelson - I'm sure Peter Bristow's vessel is not the only Nelson around catching marlin, but they'd be a rarity, that's for sure. Long and narrow, built for heavy weather at speed, they well-built and very "traditional" in a pilot-boat sense. Hard to turn quickly and quite cramped in places.
Lochin - great sea boats which provide a sound platform. Build quality good, but let down by some poor engine rooms and oddly designed bulwarks and cockpits. Flybridges adequate.
Cyfish - another well-built UK hull with good seaworthiness, but with a bigger volume hull than a Lochin so the engine access is better. Cockpits generally better too, though tackle stowage is a problem. High bulwarks make access to the water difficult. Interiors can be cramped. Have not seen a factory flybridge.
Boats that I have seen game-fishing or know of :
Princess - good for client comforts and they all have a turn of speed. Useless for fishing from, although plenty are used for that purpose ! Cockpits way too small !
Trader 42 - as far as I know only a couple of these have been built as game boats, and I suspect that they do the job more than adequately. Solidly built, great engine rooms and a reputation for a good interior would all seem to point to a good vessel. I nearly went to look at one of them in Scotland once - not sure where it went to ? I believe the other is in the Gulf ......
Byth - the first of the UK cats, and a very poor competitor to a South Boat. Well, the one I saw was !
Corvette - I saw a Corvette in France once with a cockpit instead of an aft cabin and it looked very interesting. The boat has a great reputation as a seaworthy hull, economical and well built, but I know nothing more.
Aquastar - several of these are used for gamefishing and I suspect that they fall into the Lochin/Cyfish mould. Very capable of doing something they were not designed to do.
Antares - seen some, but never ridden one. I understand that they are quite lightweight and have some French idiosyncrasies about them that leave a lot to be desired if you're a "real" game fisho !
Boats that I would like to see gamefishing :
Lagoon 42/3 - just look at the pictures and you could easily imagine what you could do with this big cat ! You'd need a goose-neck stanchion for the chair, but economy and range is great and creature comforts abound. It'd cost you to cut one up so you had a cockpit though........
Wildcat - Irish cat with good build quality and a proven track record of sea worthiness. A good looking boat too, easily adapted to game fishing. Interior would need some work on though.
Catapult - new UK cat that could be a possibility. I know nothing more than a write-up and some photos, but it does look very high out of the water, which could be a problem.
Kingfisher - Cornish builder better known for traditional GRP commercial hulls, but he has a 30 foot beauty which could make a fabulous game-boat. I rode the first one and was most impressed. Complete with flybridge and a decent cockpit.
South Boats - UK cat with a huge proven charter record, mammoth cockpit and their flybridge version seems made for the game. Not sure if one has made it into bluewater, but a top contender if you can afford it.
I'll try and post some pics tomorrow from my files. It'll be interesting to see what others have to say !! Given the money and told to be sensible with it, I'd ring Southern Boats and have a ride on their flybridge model to see if it ticks the boxes first.
I'll probably have a couple more to metion too, now that I think of it. For example, I always thought a Targa 23 with outboards on a pod (instead of the stern-drive) would make a fine little stand-up game boat. Mind you, th3 25 with a standard engine would work just as well, complete with small flybridge with aft helm !
TomBettle
26-10-2008, 10:54
The Targa is nicely built, but very expensive and very tippy at sea. Goes great in a straight line, but slips and slides when in tight spaces.
Agree about the Antares and the Corvette is beautifully built, but with some issues over warranty and aftersales (...so and owner told me).
The Wildcat looks superb, but I'd like to try one in a big following sea at displacement speeds. The reason being (admittedly slightly different hull shape), Troms Explorer was a Rod Baker, Powerglide 40. She ran fantasticaly into a head sea and beam sea, but with a following sea she was very VERY hard work. Full lock corrections and ages for them to take effect.
The Powerglide was incredibly cheap to run. 21 knots cruise at 3 litres per mile, regardless of sea conditions.
Tony Allen (I think), has one on order from Rod Baker for his operation in Florida. The boat, looks great to my untrained eye. Last time I saw it, it was a long way from completion. The big issue with Rod's design (which I think the Wildcat avoids) is hardly any buoyancy at the bow. She doesn't nose dive, but seas that are bigger than her freeboard do thump there way over the screen and leave you winded when they hit the under sides of the hull. It never slams coming off a wave, but sort of thumps you upwards when you hit one... Odd. If it wasn't for the issue of following seas, I'd be getting one off Rod as they are tremendous value. The other downside to him is you would never want him to trim the boat inside. Talk about rough and ready!
Tom
Roddy Hays
26-10-2008, 13:12
I haven;t spoken to Tony for a couple of months, but I know he was disappointed by the punctuality of his delivery. At one stage he was also thinking of taking the boat across the pond on its own bum, not sure what came of that.
That's an interesting point you bring up regarding stern seas and cats. There are good and there are bad, same as with mono hulls. I know Roger Bayzand couldn't praise his South Boat enough, and from my conversations with Frank at Safehaven some time ago I didn't think that stern seas were a major problem for the Wildcat. He's posted some new video recently (he's always had good video) here :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-6LnKT67Fko
Needless to say, it reminded me that his mono hull, the Interoceptor, could also be a very viable platform for game-fishing too. I haven;t spoken to him for about four years but it looks as though he is going from strength to strength with his boats.
I've never ridden a Targa, only padded around a couple, so your insight there is interesting. Is that the 23 you're talking about, or the very popular 31 ? If it's the latter then I'd agree with you as she even looks tippy in the flesh. I always thought the 23 looked far more stable than the others.
If you're unconcerned about looks (ie: a Merritt catches fish just as well as a Lochin, for example) then there's a whole slew of other European boats that could well be possibilities for the "list". Sea Ranger springs to mind if you had the money, as does Nimbus and Hardy. Any production boat, if you had the money, can be customised to suit.
TomBettle
26-10-2008, 13:47
I haven;t spoken to Tony for a couple of months, but I know he was disappointed by the punctuality of his delivery. At one stage he was also thinking of taking the boat across the pond on its own bum, not sure what came of that.
That's an interesting point you bring up regarding stern seas and cats. There are good and there are bad, same as with mono hulls. I know Roger Bayzand couldn't praise his South Boat enough, and from my conversations with Frank at Safehaven some time ago I didn't think that stern seas were a major problem for the Wildcat. He's posted some new video recently (he's always had good video) here :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-6LnKT67Fko
Needless to say, it reminded me that his mono hull, the Interoceptor, could also be a very viable platform for game-fishing too. I haven;t spoken to him for about four years but it looks as though he is going from strength to strength with his boats.
I've never ridden a Targa, only padded around a couple, so your insight there is interesting. Is that the 23 you're talking about, or the very popular 31 ? If it's the latter then I'd agree with you as she even looks tippy in the flesh. I always thought the 23 looked far more stable than the others.
If you're unconcerned about looks (ie: a Merritt catches fish just as well as a Lochin, for example) then there's a whole slew of other European boats that could well be possibilities for the "list". Sea Ranger springs to mind if you had the money, as does Nimbus and Hardy. Any production boat, if you had the money, can be customised to suit.
I was chatting (emails) with Tony about project managing his boat for him after Troms Explorer. We jumped the queue over Tony's simply because I was there giving Rod and ear bashing fairly often. Tony's boat sat for over a year in exactly the same spot with the engines in their crates alongside, all gathering dust.
Rod would tell me how great his boat was and no problem with this and none with that. The reality was he didn't actually go on them himself. Taking her to Norway gave me a fairly good insight into her good bits and bad bits. She was one hell of a boat, but weight distribution (fore and aft) was absolutely imperitive. Get it right and she would go through any sea (we had Force 9's and 30feet on the pt 1/4 rounding the Western Cape). BUT you could never use an autopilot in a following sea, it would never keep up. Actually the cheap skates never fitted an autopilot at all.
Finally, Rods estimations of performance and economy are pie in the sky. She is very good, 24.5 kts tops from 2 x Iveco 285's and cruise of 21kts through almost any sea for just 3 litres per mile, but he was quoting over 30 tops and 600 miles from the tanks (we were getting 450 if we were to drain them).
I first came across Frank when he supplied his first Interceptor 38 to Chris Caines. It was early days for that boat and it needed some work (broached like a broachy thing), but it seems he has got all that sussed. The Wildcat looks phenomenal. I really want to have a play in one and if it didn't suffer as Rods does in a following sea then I'd fall for it 100%. I know the Wildcat uses about 50% more juice for the same sort of speed, but it looks one hell of a tool!
The Targa's are built like brick outhouses. Hell of a boat in that sense and very VERY fast. But they are also extremely odd. You love them or hate them. The wood work inside is all very rugged and solid and the cushions are basic fabric with little lounging around support. The accomodation is fucntional and extremely unusual in layout, but they sell and they sell for big bucks by the UK standards. The range currently goes from 25 to 42 with , I believe a 46 coming shortly.
All are on outdrives which gives them the slightly tippy feeling and as they have nothing really gripping the water you get the slippyness when working in tight spaces. Get to know it and you may love it, but I wouldn't want one for any purpose other than harbourmaster or police duties. For these purposes they are perfect.
Obviously I know about most of the other boats, but have limited experience of using them, possibly with the exception of a Princess. We've fitted rod holders for a guy who liked to catch mackerel before, but using one in earnest for fishing! NOoooooooo!
Tom
TomBettle
26-10-2008, 19:09
Tom, are you able to sell me one of those? If so, how much (and I expect a friends price).
Aram (www.gonefishing.tv)
Unfortunately not Aram, Frank deals direct from his base in Ireland only.
His boats are gaining one heck of a reputation for their ability, but for essentially, a charter boat, they are very expensive. Finish inside is very nice, but nothing like you would expect from a poduction line boat (compromise?). The estimated pice given at te start of the build is likely to escalate somewhat. I seem to remember hearing that a 40 (with it's nice, but basic interior) Wildcat ended up costing the best part of £400K recently?
Humm...
The great majority of my experience has been working the deck. Most of my boating time has also been in fairly calm seas where most any boat does well. Only a relative handful of times have I experienced what I'd call challenging conditions (trying to make speed in rough conditions). So I welcome comments from those folks who have spent more hours driving these things around. I reckon seaworthiness and handling/manoeuverability are the most important, since with good input it is then pretty easy to get the cockpit and flybridge layout configured right for gamefishing.
Just a few general thoughts re seaworthiness: I find most European monohulls are too fat (shallow vee) up front. The intention is to create more interior space up front but this makes them really pound when trying to make speed in rough seas, Jeanneaus are especially bad in this respect, followed by Beneteau, Starfisher and Rodman of the boats I've been on. I will say the Rodman 1250 appears to be a decent sea boat, but a vessel of that size and weight is a different animal altogether to boats in the 30 to 36 foot class. Some of the British hulls with a work boat heritage I think are probably better sea boats than the European pleasure/cruiser hulls and the build construction of something like a Lochin is certainly better than a Beneteau or Jenneau. Although it must obviously be said that they are priced in a different sort of bracket. The Nelson 40/42 is a really good performer in rough seas probably because of its narrowness.
Admittedly not all locations demand a really good sea boat. But I can think of plenty of places where a boat that can make a decent cruise speed in rough seas will sell better than one that has to pull back.
Manoeuverability tends to be the other main criterion by which a game fishing vessel is judged, and I would love for someone to be able to tell me the good and bad of all these hulls handle on a fish. But I get the impression, from having seen quite a few in action, that most vessels can be driven effectively on a fish with skilled (indeed even common sense will do most times) handling, even single screws. The biggest impediment in fighting a fish, from what I've seen is the massive swim platform tacked on to the back of almost every European vessel, the Spanish/Continental ones being particularly bad. But this is relatively easy to get rid of at the design/options stage.
One thing that is impossible to alter is the height your cockpit is above the water, and a lot of European vessels are high enough to have to take it into consideration at the end game. Fortunately in most cases it can be worked around with longer gaffs and snooters but things like the Cyfish 33 are higher off the water than a gamefishing vessel probably should be. This is where I look at a lot of catamarans and think how difficult it would be to manage a fish, especially all those manic little fish in Cape Verde, from such a high cockpit.
Smaller sportfishing vessels ie below around 30 foot are a bit of a different ball game and probably deserve another thread in themselves. I'm thinking more of what most folks understand as a game fishing boat ie. a flybridge boat in the 30 to 40+ foot range.
Regards
P.
PanamaJack
26-10-2008, 19:43
An interesting topic Dustin and Roddy's response in particular gave a very detailed assessment of the pros and cons of respective manufacturers.
'Doing a politician' though and answering a somewhat different question I, from a purely fishing perspective, have a soft spot for the Dutch Strikers. Caught my first Blue Marlin on one - the single engined, Wight Striker, the same one on which Ann Holmes caught her 50lb IGFA line class record and 6lb Bluefish, and Alan Roscoe his 80lb class White Marlin on - and fished several others, and those 'old tin cans' do have a reputation for raising fish. If they have a fault they are perhaps a tad on the light side.
Of the European/British hulls I've fished from and I would hasten to add my experience is in no way exhaustive the one I was most impressed with as a sea boat was the Nelson 40. They go back really fast as well, probably because being narrow they push the water aside more easily. Not designed/laid out for game fishing but not a bad basis for a sportfisher, I would have thought. The Mitchell 31 and Cyfish 33, at least the ones I'm familiar with, are adequate fishing platforms (Cyfish 33 too high off the water as mentioned) but don't have the performance to appeal to most buyers. I've also fished from a Lochin 333 flybridge, which I like. Engine access as Roddy mentions is the major bugbear, but could be improved with a redesign.
Of the European boats I have to admit none really impress me as a sea boat and most are also badly laid out although the walkaround concept Rodmans/Starfisher are useful if the boat is going to be used for other purposes than gamefishing. I do think they are built, or can be built well enough to be worth consideration (at least if you were a buyer on this side of the Atlantic) but the hull shape and layout need a bit of improvement.
I wonder if anyone could tell me how the smaller to mid-sized American vessels from mid-range brands like Luhrs, Albermarle, Pursuit, etc compare as sea boats to European/British vessels of similar size? I have fished a Australian Riveira 36 of an older vintage (1997) and wasn't impressed with either performance or seakeeping.
Regards
P.
-------------
Dave, ... Thanks for bringing up the Striker boats. Those seem to be the European vessels best laid out for gamefishing, probably because they were designed for the American market. Didn't realize they ever made anything with a single engine! No objections to an aluminium, or indeed steel boat in principle but so long as it does the job. How do they rate as sea boats? I know Roddy has spent some considerable time on one.
P.
Hi all,
I thought I would add my 0,2 cents to the discussion.
You have not mentioned all the italian builders, like Calafuria, Ars Mare, Polyform Triakis, Bimax, 3B Craft, I am shure I forgot quite a few. These are purpose build game boats. Very similar in looks to the US boats. I have personally ridden a Calafuria 42, and a 3B Craft 37.
The Calafuria is a more traditional hull design, drifts horrible, but very good in a chop, the 3B is a dream! Layout, ride, fit and finish, but very $$$$! And lets not forget, the mother of all game boats, the Bertrams are also European now, I know they are still made in the US, but they are owned by Ferretti.
Roddy Hays
26-10-2008, 22:40
Maguro - thanks for your input on Italian vessels. I didn't mention any of them because I simply do not know them. I'm sure there's a few good boats out there, do you have any pictures ?
Dustin - interesting you'd pick the Nelson. I had heard from others in Madeira that they felt its lack of manoeuverability may play a small part in some of Peter's losses. While I admit that they are great sea-boats at speed, I wonder what they'd be like at an 8-knot troll in a big beam sea.......
As regards your observations about Euro boats in general, I'd place most UK hulls in a different category to those from the continental mainland. UK charter requirements per the MSA and DOT have been in place for a long time and the regulations themselves have led to the build quality you speak of, notwithstanding a very strong "British" marine tradition that is matched in some respects only by the Dutch in that sort of boat. Nelson, Halmatic, Aquastar, Lochin, CyFish/Cygnus, Kingfisher and all the rest are but obvious followers of a maritime heritage that is barely found elsewhere. In terms of sheer brute strength even the USA charter fleet struggle to keep pace. I remember once in Porto Santo when a tug with a 200' barge came into the giant harbour there and attempted to berth both alongside the wall. A hopeless helmsman managed to cast off the tow to avoid a calamity and aboard Anguilla, a 33 CyFish, I watched with a cynical eye as 200' of barge came alongside me at about 4 knots. Fortunately, being of the Channel Island school, I had 2" warps up on the quay because of the surge, and Anguilla shrugged off the barge with a creak and a groan, her huge rubber D-fender absorbing all of the force and the heavily-built hull moving not an inch. I later learnt that most of the watchers had assumed the boat would be crushed, an almost certainty with some of the European boats I have seem, some so thin down below you can make out the shadow of moving water through the hull.
Your points about cats and their height out of the water is a very valid point, but I really feel nowadays that with the release ethics in place this is not the burden it was once, especially for me. I have found in the last few times I have run boats that the urge to hold fish alongside the boat has subsided, and I am more than happy to grab the lure and cut the leader asap if the snooter cannot be used. I feel the use of stainless hooks, especially single rigs, is less of a problem to the fish than we think. Indeed, more of a shortcoming for the cat is the space in the hulls for engines and their maintenance. In all other respects I feel the cat is such a superior platform for charter fishing that it almost becomes my first choice by default, allowing for the financial burden of cost, fuel burnt and other incremental additions peculiar to larger boats.
As a quick answer to your question regarding the comparative sea-worthiness of US and Euro hulls, I can simply say that I have been aboard a host of both parties' hulls, and given the choice to choose a sub 40' hull to ride out a storm in it would have to be a UK hull. Brick ****houses they are and they always will be. I've been out in a 12 aboard a 33 Lochin and never felt in danger, and I put both of my CyFishes through some serious weather over the years without a flicker of unease. Indeed, I used to cross between Madeira and Porto Santo regularly with Anguilla in conditions the Independencia wouldn't run in. My old Port Santo Captain Joao loved that boat, and wouldn't hesitate to go to sea in it no matter what the conditions - sometimes much to my bewilderment as he'd be back within 30 minutes with some very green cargo !
Sorry, rambling far too much....
TomBettle
26-10-2008, 23:06
I am enjoying the rambling immensley.
I may flog 'em, but I can still learn a huge amount about them.
I do have one point to disagree on.
The engine access on Troms Explorer was absolutely phenomenal. Never seen a similar sized mono with that much space to work around. There was a good 18 inches to 2 feet either side of the engines and fore and aft, plenty of room to get to belts, gear boxes etc. The big failing was decent accomodation which whilst it had a vast saloon / wheelhouse area it had no cabins in the true sense of the word.
She was limited by her wavepiercing displacement style bow and I do know that a reasonable cabin can be had in the bow of the South Boat and I assume the Wildcat.
mrfishjersey
26-10-2008, 23:10
I am enjoying this rambling too, carry on....
Roddy - and everybody else, I currently do not have any pics. at least not in a digital format on my computer. But whoever is interested can find a lot of Italian game boats on the brokerage site mondialbroker.com!
Has anybody ever fished on, or been on a Redfinn? I saw one, I believe it was a 10 meter, on aboat show once, and it looked awsome. However I did not have the opportunity to climb on board, and check everything out - just curious
Captain Spike
26-10-2008, 23:49
I wonder if anyone could tell me how the smaller to mid-sized American vessels from mid-range brands like Luhrs, Albermarle, Pursuit, etc compare as sea boats to European/British vessels of similar size? I have fished a Australian Riveira 36 of an older vintage (1997) and wasn't impressed with either performance or seakeeping.
Much depends on what the boat is intended to do. I'm not a lifelong sailor so I look at boats without predudice, they are all intended to perform different tasks. American boats are mostly used for trolling, often many miles offshore so ride in poor conditions is important. My Carolina classic will run at 22+ knots in conditions that will slow down even boats like Jocanana the 12.5 metre Rodman. The downside is that my boat isn't great drifting for sharks or bottom fishing. The deep V that gives it a great ride in bad conditions is a disadvantage whenever the boat isn't moving. English style boats such as Lochins are semi-displacement to cope with the conditions usually found around the UK. Their problem for big game fishing is their high freeboard that makes it difficult to reach down to handle a fish.
TomBettle
26-10-2008, 23:59
Their problem for big game fishing is their high freeboard that makes it difficult to reach down to handle a fish.
And will go anywhere in any conditions, just come down to 14 knots and less.
Try and maintain 20 in some of them (if they will even do it) and you need private dental care.
Completely agree about the mass produced European models. They are the ones I know the best as it's those I sell, but they have serious limitations. In fairness to them, they are aimed at a mass "private" market, not a commercial charter angling one.
Out of those, for game fishing, the Rodman has the edge, but as a professional charter boat???? I'd go with Roddy and his experience any day.
In response to Patudo, and Capt. Spike's posts, I believe that a Luhrs on one Hand, and a Pursuit, or an Albemarle on the other hand, are not even in the same league. I have spent some time on a Luhrs 29, and a 41, and I was not impressed at all. Several production runs of Luhrs boats had severe construction, and design flaws. On the 41 e.g. the engineroom ventilation was insufficient (bad hull design concerning the air intakes), the result was soot of the diesel engines everywhere. It was virtually impossible to be anywhere else on the boat, but on the flybridge when underway, because of the diesel fumes, the salon, the entire interiour was black from soot. I spoke to several Luhrs owners and ex owners, and most of them would not recommend that boat. On the other hand I test rode a 1997 Pursuit 28 walkaround with twin 170hp Yanmars this year in Ft Lauderdale, and a Pursuit 3000 offshore with twin Volvos in the Keys. Rock solid feel, nice layout of the helm, and cockpit, and also good riding - not quite as good as an Albemarle due to a more moderate deadrise, but much more stable at anchor or drift.
Maguro,
Thanks for weighing in, and please, tell us more about those Italian vessels and the fishery they are used for. How long a run is required to get to the grounds, typical sea conditions, style of fishing, etc.. I'd be very interested to know, as I'm sure others would. Which are considered the top brands over there, and why?
------------------------------
Roddy,
I'd agree the Nelson isn't as nimble as something like a G&S or Gamefisherman - but big fish are consistently caught in Madeira out of boats that are less manoeuverable still, including single screws, like your ex Anguilla and the Lara Jade, the Our Mary etc. Pete has a ton of experience and understands his vessel intimately, and if you hooked up a thousand pound fish in Madeira and could have your choice of the area skippers to catch it with, many would say he's the one to beat. Plus, he's laid his vessel out very nicely, not just for fishing but also engine room access, storage space etc. If anyone can get their hands on an old Nelson he would be very worth talking to. I think, all things considered, I have not yet been on a European built vessel that betters it for big game fishing, and it compares very well as a fishboat to some of the American ones I've been on. But I look forward to fishing on more of both.
The American boats I'd like to spend more time on, besides the jig built Carolina boats, are the Downeast style hulls. Those seem to resemble the Cyfish, Aquastar type a lot, but some reach pretty good cruising speeds (although maybe driven by big thirsty engines). I think where the American vessels (not all, but by and large) tend to have the edge is in offshore running. Not required in many European destinations but by golly it makes a big difference, not just in comfort but in how much fishing time you have, to have a good sea boat when running to the Picos in some of the conditions that you experience out there, and there are other European fishing grounds that are just as testing. Actually I forgot to mention the Interceptor 38 run by Adrian Molloy was a very good sea boat, able to maintain good speed and ride in rough seas. Adrian had cockpit controls in his, as I recall and caught several bluefins with just himself as crew. That's pretty impressive fishing.
As a deckhand I find handling fish from a cockpit lower to the water so much easier. There are certain situations where it is very nice to be low to the water. Billing and releasing squirrelly little billfish like white marlin and sailfish is probably where being able to reach down to the water easily comes in most handy, and it happens often enough, even in our part of the world. Gaffing generally is also easier (although I guess it's just a matter of getting used to doing that from a higher platform with a longer gaff) and hauling in big tunas into the boat likewise - although it would be possible to rig something like a gin pole to hoist bigger fish if you were boating them from one of those big cats?
There's no doubt that catamarans have their advantages, and the fuel figures Tom quotes for the Powerglide are very impressive. I can think of at least one owner of a 36+ foot cat that would dearly love to be able to achieve a 21 knot cruise at 3 litres per mile (is that per engine or for both engines Tom?) regardless of sea conditions. Much though I like the classic sportfisher design, anywhere you are taking out big charterparties, like UK wrecking or how they run game fishing trips in Gran Canaria with up to 8-10 share charter anglers, those big cats must be hard to beat. I'd be interested to know how the smaller cats in say the 25 to maybe 32-33 foot range compare to monohulls in the 30 to 36 foot range. A cat and a monohull the same length are really quite different animals as the cat is so much wider. I would, incidentally, like to learn a lot more about cat design as it seems to my uneducated eye somewhat more complex than monohull design. For instance, why is it that displacement cats can make so much more speed than true displacement monohulls?
Regards
P.
TomBettle
27-10-2008, 10:46
I can think of at least one owner of a 36+ foot cat that would dearly love to be able to achieve a 21 knot cruise at 3 litres per mile (is that per engine or for both engines Tom?) regardless of sea conditions. Much though I like the classic sportfisher design, anywhere you are taking out big charterparties, like UK wrecking or how they run game fishing trips in Gran Canaria with up to 8-10 share charter anglers, those big cats must be hard to beat. I'd be interested to know how the smaller cats in say the 25 to maybe 32-33 foot range compare to monohulls in the 30 to 36 foot range. A cat and a monohull the same length are really quite different animals as the cat is so much wider. I would, incidentally, like to learn a lot more about cat design as it seems to my uneducated eye somewhat more complex than monohull design. For instance, why is it that displacement cats can make so much more speed than true displacement monohulls?
Regards
P.
Hi Dustin
3 litres per mile, total!
Our total voyage was 2103nm
Our total engine hours (including sea trials and a major break down, plus marina time etc) 118.
This obviously calculates as a slightly slower average of just under 18 knots, but our typical runs would be 350nm for 1000 litres. This would remain within 50 litres the same, whether it was a sheltered section through the Baltic or a heavy open water section such as the North Sea.
She was remarkably economical.
But she was far too twitchy on the back end for me to own one myself. If I knew Rod had sorted that, she'd be up on my hit list without a doubt.
The hull shape is akin to the fast ferries running up and down the Thames. Each hull is more similar to that of a mono hull racing yacht than a mono hull power boat or planing cat.
It's displaces water rather than pulls itself up and ontop of it, but due to the knife like bow it slices it apart very efficiently rather than piling it apart like a traditional displacement hull.
That is a very non scientific explanation based on observation rather than anything else. I hope it makes sense.
Tom
Luis Nabais
27-10-2008, 12:36
Much depends on what the boat is intended to do. My Carolina classic will run at 22+ knots in conditions that will slow down even boats like the 12.5 metre Rodman. The downside is that my boat isn't great drifting for sharks or bottom fishing.
Yes Peter.
I believe no one is going to forget that day when we leave almost one hour late and we arrive first than all the others.
Why?
Because we were able to keep a decent cruising speed, in confort and security and all the other boats had to slow down since they were not build to be even in a moderate sea.
It was a real pleasure for me to show them Tigerlily´s back but I don´t agree with you when you talk about the downside of her when she is drifting.
I think the big problem in european boats is that they are not really designed for Big Game fishing.
Spanish boats try to be a mix of a cruising and a fishing boat but not for Big Game and if you try to use them for that purpose, soon you´ll realise this.
It is truth that they can catch fish but, afterall, everyboat can make that, even a small rubber boat.
French boats also try to make the same but, as far as I can see, even worst than a spanish boat and just try to deal a Marlin from a french fly bridge and you´ll understand this very quickly.
If I only had the chance to use a european model sure I was going to a Uk boat, for many reasons.
Italy has a few nice boats also but again the same problem and they were not really designed for Big Game fishing as well as there are other places in the world, like Australia, where boats are made and look like a Offshore game boat but, in reallity, they are not.
Bertram´s are, for me, a pation, but I wouldn´t recognise them as a european boat.
Even with Italian owners they are made in the same place in Miami and, better than all, with many workers working there for so long that they are almost a part of the furniture.
There are things and small details in boat building that just the experience and the skills of a good worker can do.
Riva, some years ago, used the 25 Sportfisherman mould from Bertram to build boats in Italy.
Looking from the outside they look like the Bertram cousin but take both of them to the sea and you´ll see the diferences.
Luhrs is not a boat that I was going to buy today and I hear that the most experienced guys from Luhrs are now working in Cabo.
I believe the best european Big Game fishing boat is not made yet but, for sure, changing a few things in some Uk boats, above the water line, we were going to have very good options.
Luis
TomBettle
27-10-2008, 12:46
Nice post Luis, great reading.
I am slowly going off the idea of being the Luhrs agent for Ireland, Portugal and CV....
I think I'd rather deal in a dearer product that carried respect.
Anyone know of any agencies up for grabs?!
Tom
TomBettle
27-10-2008, 14:21
...now my old mate Rod Baker has been behind some interesting boats in his time. How he does it, I don't know as he doesn't particularly like going afloat. In addition, one or two haven't been particularly good boats, but proved hugely popular.
He builds the little Powerglide 535 which I believe was originally Dutch. The boat is very dated, but has a legendary hull for it's diminutive size.
He also produces (in tiny numbers so far) the Powerglide 30 and it's "Sport" sister (the same, just with a bit more comfort onboard and a longer saloon).
This looks intriguing to me and maybe one or two of you more experienced fellas could take a look at Rod's site and give your opinion based on "the look".
http://www.powerglide30.com
It can come with or without the roof and can, of course be fitted out with a tower etc etc. It's available in single shaft or twin outdrives (I am trying to estabish if the engines can be flush).
I heard that the earliest models were fitted with stonking great single screw diesels and whilst they went like trains they fell over onto their starboard chine. I am assuming this can also be cured by having two more moderately sized outdrives with due props.
...What is realy attractive about this boat, if it is tough enough and does the job, is that it can be fully finished for not a lot more than a week aboard Coral Star! Ok a bit more.
What do you reckon? Any good or taking too much of a gamble?
Tom
Sorry Roddy, we have posted at the same time, so this won't appear to make much sense (often my posts are like that) immediately after yours.
Roddy Hays
27-10-2008, 14:21
Dustin,
All valid points, and some interesting observations. I should point out of course that your choice of boat is always going to be dependent on your needs. For example, I chose a CyFish (Anguilla) initially for Madeira in 1989 because I needed a hull that would handle the winter fishing conditions when the big-eye were there, a long cockpit to carry fish (yes, I sold fish with Joao the first two years there as he had a licence, it was legal, and we had very little traffic), and I also had an eye on the delivery of the vessel to Madeira on its own bum, something that the other CyFish Lara Jade and Ron's Our Mary, a Mitchell 31] both achieved. I needed a solid, sea worthy boat, the budget did not stretch to going to the USA, and it was a type of vessel I was used to, both in sea-keeping terms and build quality/maintenance.
In 1991, when it was time for a second boat, I chose the 35' Maine Coaster from Henriques - an unsual Down-East/Portugese hybrid. I chose the boat for its cockpit - knowing that the winter bottom-fishing charters and part-share tuna trips were still a major part of my income, and also because for a 35' boat it had very good living accomodation. I spent the better part of 18 months living on that boat in Madeira before we actually got registered there and moved down from Porto Santo. Most of all, I chose the Maine Coaster because of all the US vessels in my budget it was the most brick ****house built, and had the most cavernous engine room imagineable. In those far off days before the world had heard of Madeira and organised its visiting boats better, we were often put in very strange places for the night, well away from electricity and on more than one cold winter night I put myself to sleep between the engines for warmth. Indeed, we never had a berth all the time I was there - all the big-game boats were transient gypsies, asked to move at the marina office's will, and it thoroughly angered me to often return after a trip, even in at the height of the marlin season in 1995, to find Susan standing somewhere in the marina with all our ropes on her shoulders, beckoning us to a far distant spot. Grrr.....
So, in that respect (getting back to the boats, and rambling some more), a place like Madeira is an anomaly in many ways. For marlin fishing you could conceivably run something as off-beat as that South African catamaran of John Loftus's (50hp yammies ? on the back but still 40' feet of hull and 20 knots to boot - if my memory serves me rightly) for example, where fueling could be undertaken by jerry-can. In the same respect you could also put something like a 26 Albemarle CC in there with its diesel jack-shaft and have a ball, though you wouldn't want to do much more than run three rods. I remember well when Casper de Groot brought his 15' Boston Whaler to Madeira in 1994 and spent a couple of months running the flat water with two rods. He caught several big fish from it, and many was the time I'd pass him by, offering help, and he'd wave from that funny little hunched up position he used to assume in the front of the boat. Mind you, he was supremely fit and strong as a horse, also somewhat , erm, eccentric....
In Brazil though, or on the Azores bank off Faial on those big sea days, Margarita wouldn't have cut it, nor maybe Ron's Our Mary. Lara Jade would have been fine as a sea-boat and she had the speed and economy to work there, but Anguilla, as a much slower boat, would have been toast. Cepheus, the 44 Striker of John Gill's, was beautifully laid out (though with no cockpit tackle stowage), and worked well in the Azores, but she was well underpowered and her little 200 hp Detroits gave her little space for manouevre in the range stakes. In Brazil especially, a big fast brawny boat is a must, and the large cats of Mares seem to be popular there despite their build quality (did you know that one of the earlier Chundas was a Mares ? That was the boat they set most of the Abijidan records from). Off the eastern seaboard of the USA, long runs are indeed the norm and as a result deep-V hulls with a fine entry, typical planing sections aft, with good accomodation and reasonable fuel economy are the norm. Some of these US boats are hell in a stern sea though, and some roll like bitches in the rough. Some, touted as the very finest, are in actuality absolute dogs in the head seas they were built for. A very fine 40' Cabo I ran in 2004, marketing as a head sea eating machine, turned out to be an orthodontist's money-making dream in anything on the nose over 3'. It was DREADFUL in that direction, yet, incredibly, was maybe the finest boat of that size I have ever driven going downsea.
The point to emphasise here is not to linger too long on the performance sections of the USA boat reviews. Look at the photos, and admire the cushions and breakfast tray on the double berth, but take all else with a pinch of salt as the magazines rely on selling advertising and the reviews are NEVER going to jeopardize that ! Best to ride the boat or speak to those who have done so and get a true impression of the make and model that way. If I had to buy another US boat for Madeira, for example, I'd definitively stop by the likes of Duffy and Ellis. You could even take on some of the Canadian boats too.
The down-east hull is a combination of very fine entry and flat aft sections, giving a relatively good sea-keeping performance too. Down-east also means good load-carrying capacity at speed too, which was vital for the fisheries the vessels were originally designed for. You could happily run such a vessel in most locations around the world. Lacking a keel like most UK hulls, they can wander a bit in stern seas, though it has to be said that a little keel with twin engines is far better than a large keel with twin engines - one of Peter Wright's rides back in the 90's was so squirrelly in a following sea that the crew would travel back from the banks with their lifejackets inside the door, and one day I was up top when one wave tipped us over so far and back up in the direction that we'd come from that Peter casually mentioned afterwards that he thought, possibly, he could have stuck his leg over side up on the bridge and touched the water with his foot - I think a client was injured aboard the boat that day and as a result Peter took a chain-saw to the keel the following lay-up - this on a boat from a yard famous for its game-boats. It is very difficult to find a production boat that has both a fine head-sea ride and a great down-sea ride too.
The basic physics of hull design nearly always tend to lean one way or the other, head-sea or stern-sea. Boats that meet both criteria are rare indeed, though I do feel that most of the semi-displacement hulls from the UK do come close to this - I rarely have found US hulls that do the same, and I mean that most nicely. If speed at sea for a long run is your criteria, you'll find there is precious little difference between a 38 Lochin or CyFish 39 at sea in heavy weather compared to a Bertram or Hatteras, for example. I personally think you'll find value in looking at the number of UK hulls of this type that are used professionally (RNLI, Pilots, north-sea oil industry support etc etc) versus the number of Bertrams and Hatterases used in the same way - it's non-existent. Yes, some of the Carolina boats are built for heavy breaking inlets, which would put a UK hull under severe test, but to be blunt you might get some green ones over the top of your Lochin but you'd still come out the far side.
All in all though, as you have said, the fishing attributes of any hull can be tinkered with - sea-worthiness, build quality and machinery access being the most important aspects for me. Flybridge, manouevrability. tackle stowage can all be overcome, but my primary consideration at sea is always to have a vessel under my feet that will get its crew back home again. If you're fishing your Picos (wherever they are - off Portugal ?) I'd like to think that the rides you have had out there in some of the continental boats would make comparison with any US or UK vessel inadequate. And, to be blunt, a good man at the wheel can turn some savage weather into a day of trifling conditions, whereas a part-time doctor or lawyer at the wheel would have me sweating all day long. Experience at sea can make a difference in even the most mundane weather - a helmsman who doesn't know how to trim a boat, or continually takes a wave on the nose without adjusting throttle, or worst of all, has no feel for a rudder in a stern sea can all make life miserable for those on board, particularly for someone who might be better at the wheel but is unable to do so.
While I understand your needs for lower gunwales, I still think it's a trivial matter in the overall context. High gunwales lead to security, and I know some of those blue marlin in Madeira made me very happy to have a nice high boat - Joao still bears the scars to this day of a fish that attempted to do a lobotomy and an eye transplant at the same time. I know in the early days we found it a hassle having to reach over the side, but the snooter and long handled release tools have come a long way. Quite why you think being closer to squirrelly little fish makes life easier is beyond me - I'd rather be as far away from them as possible ! :blink: Gaffing is not a problem, 8 foot is the max length allowed by the IGFA and I always have at least two tuna gaffs that length on a boat anyway. We must have gaffed several thousand tunas over the years in Porto Santo and Madeira and I cannot think of one occasion when the height above the water made life difficult. Yes, not easy to drag an 800 DOA blue aboard, but you simply tow her in instead, land her and go back to sea - that's the beauty of Madeira. Putting the transom door in Anguilla certainly made life easier though, I will admit ! I've mulled over the landing problem aboard cats before, and thought a drop-down ramp between the hulls would work well without affecting the hull's structural strength.
Catamarans do indeed have some great advantages, but it is important to remember that as with monohulls, there are good hulls out there and bad. Some cats are fuel thirsty (or normal when measured alongside a monohull) - like a South Boat, and some are obviously efficient - the Powerglide. Some are extremely impressive - the Maine Cat 47 (3000 mile range at 8 knots from 400 gallons of fuel and twin 160hp motors and a top speed of 25 knots), and some are dogs at the fuel dock, no better than a monohull. The more hull you put in the water the less efficient they are, which is why the fuel efficiency of long thin hulls is better than fat flat planing ones. Some are built exceptionally well like Glacier Bay, and some have a horrible build reputation - Kevlacat US springs to mind. Of the Euro cats, I feel the top two for build quality would have to be South Boat and Safehaven's Wildcat or Genesis - though I have to be honest and say I have not seen a Safehaven boat in the flesh.
But again, in some areas they may not be the answer, for they all have one failing, and that is the 8-knot troll into a head sea. Until you get to the Tennant-sized NZ cats of 50 feet or so, it is very difficult to avoid that "thump" under the wing-deck, though it is easy to negate somewhat with an angled attack on a wave. That, and their tendency to snap-roll compared to a mono-hull in a beam sea - every hull movement in a cat is quicker and it can take some getting used to. If you routinely troll an area where stiff wind against tide conditions are by far the norm, a cat may not be the best choice. In Madeira and La Gomera, for example, they would be great boats (a local in LG routinely fishes for marlin out of an aluminium pontoon-river boat), but I'd think twice about putting one in Lagos or Faial. Unfortunately, getting a few trial days under your belt in such locations is an impossibility, and stooging around the Solent for a few hours won't really replicate the conditions either. The South Boat, from what Roger Bayzand used to tell me, is fairly full in the bows and thus seems to be quite soft in a head sea. This, plus its strength of build is what would possibly put them at the top of my "look at" list, plus there are some available second-hand now - there may well be more coming onto the market in the future too. You'd really have to weigh up the average weather conditions over a season in your selected locale before making any decision.
In comparing hulls, I have to say that I've been on rides on most of the US cats, some Australian ones and several SA ones too, and as a rule of thumb I'm happy to state the following. Up to about 20 feet or so, a cat or almost any build quality (within reason) or hull design, will outperform a mono-hull, even (or almost) at trolling speeds into a head sea. It's all a question of weight and a mono of that length doesn't have it for comfort. Between 20 and 35 feet, monos and cats each have their champions, which in turn will beat hands down a boat from the opposing camp in the right conditions. For going from A to B, and then stopping there to dive or fish, and then going from B to C, a cat is hard to beat. Trolling into a head sea comes down to comfort again and you'd have to look hard to find a cat that will come up trumps against a deep-V hull such as Nelson, Henriques (their 38 was an awesome head-sea eating boat, maybe the finest I have been on) or Liberty (just as three examples). A South Boat from the UK, the 34 Glacier Bay, the 3210 Scimitar from Oz and the Benchmark 38 are prime contenders though. Indeed, the 38 Benchmark was an extraordinarily well-conceived craft that hit the market five years too soon. I took one from Miami to Stuart after a boat show once in a steep 10 beam sea and we averaged 25 knots the whole way without discomfort. The thing could turn on a pinhead and was very uncatlike in its turns and looks. It's a shame the company went under - at one stage a Benchmark was my prime candidate for Anguilla, but its width precluded entry into what was to become my main fueling point on St Marteen.
Above 40 feet or so, you get into the realm of real design constraints, and if anyone ever wanted to turn a 60 Tennant hull into a sportfishing boat they'd do very well. However, size alone at this range means that most boats will be comfortable in a seaway, and so the major advantage of the cat becomes its fuel economy and space. In this respect they become hard to beat for the thinking man. Unfortunately though, most of the world's big fish now live in remote locations where it is difficult enough to haul a 60 foot Bertram out the water, let alone a cat with a 25' beam. This is a downside to them.
All of what you read here are just my opinions of course, and not writ in stone. I may be talking absolute tripe in which case please correct me, someone !
Far too much rambling, must go and do something else. Susan's saying I should have cut down a forest or plowed a field or something..... sorry !
__________________________________
Nice post Luis - a balanced and rational overview !
Roddy Hays
27-10-2008, 14:37
Tom,
PowerGlide 30 looks nice. Doesn't seem to be much falling over there - nothing a couple of wedges wouldn't fix, anyway. What size motor goes in them ? What sort of money are you talking about ?
Ridden a few of his Offshores, not a great fan of those. Drift too fast and bang about too much for me as an angling boat, though good value for money as an uncompleted hull if you were working from scratch.
Luhrs ? I was waiting for someone else to tell you, so I can come clean now. I wouldn't touch one with a barge pole.... sorry. :yucky: Mind you, don't try and sell me an Antares or a Merry Fisher either...... :)
TomBettle
27-10-2008, 14:52
Tom,
PowerGlide 30 looks nice. Doesn't seem to be much falling over there - nothing a couple of wedges wouldn't fix, anyway. What size motor goes in them ? What sort of money are you talking about ?
Ridden a few of his Offshores, not a great fan of those. Drift too fast and bang about too much for me as an angling boat, though good value for money as an uncompleted hull if you were working from scratch.
Luhrs ? I was waiting for someone else to tell you, so I can come clean now. I wouldn't touch one with a barge pole.... sorry. :yucky: Mind you, don't try and sell me an Antares or a Merry Fisher either...... :)
Don't you be rude about my little Merry Fisher 695 Mr Hayes.
I know Dustin rates them for Marlin, but I wouldn't be that extreme (the range let's them down), but I've had mine over your side of the channel on a number of occassions in "relative" comfort when much of the charter fleet has turned their clients away. OK, I've done it safely, but comfort is hardly the word. In fact the time I was over with John and Dave was interesting. I think it was a NE 6 against a spring tide. It was a little like being on one of those rodeo horse rides, whilst on a submarine. Still Dave liked it afterwards, even if John did ask to be dropped back at the airport.
Rod's 105 is not my cup of tea, but amazing value (as is his others too). I guess that's why he had so many kicking around the UK fleet.
His new Powerglide can take up to a 450Hp single on a shaft. It's this lump that I understand makes her fall on her chine.
The basic boat, regardless of what engine/s you choose is ready at under £100K.
Fully finished with toys it will be about £140K tops.
I'd kind of worked it out about Luhrs anyway, but wanted to find a sellable product. I am still keen on that aspect of my idea in the "other thread", but it does seem to be taking a back seat right now.
If I could only find a production boat that was up there on quality, but also had a North European sellability factor.....
Tom
TomBettle
27-10-2008, 14:55
Is that all? Tell him I'll take two!
I hope Mrs Bettle is understanding cause you just had a second invite of a day out on a boat (my friend that you indirectly helped choose his Delphin 595). At this rate, she aint going to be seeing much of you during that week in February.
Aram (www.gonefishing.tv)
Nice one Aram!
She'll be fine, she's a dab hand at getting the ropes and fenders out anyway (she crews her old man's Azimut 46 when it's on charter), assuming there is room onboard for her to simply read a book and fuss about getting our lunch ready (she'll kill me if she reads this!).
Well said Roddy!
----------------------------------------------------
Patudo: The fishing around the Italian peninsula is mostly about the giant bluefin tuna. The preferred method to target these fish is drifting. However the sea conditions around Italy are very different. On the west coast, the Thyrrenian sea, and around the big islands of Sardinia and Sicily the sea conditions can be quite sloppy, and might be compared to the mid Atlantic. On the east coast (Adriatic sea) fishing resembles somewhat of being on a big pond. The sea is generally calm, and the biggest fish are often caught in surprisingly shallow water. Off the Po delta 200 -300 kg fish are frequently taken in waters between 30 - 50 meters deep. That is why many game boats on the Italian east coast have fighting chairs mounted in the bow of the boat, because the bluefins cannot go deep, but take long runs on the surface, and it is much easier to chase the fish bow first. Winds in this part of the mediterranean sea can come quick, and without any warning. They create a very nasty short, and steep chop.
The run to the fishing grounds cannot be compared to the Us east coast where 50 to 70 miles are the norm, I would say the average run is around 20 - 25 miles. Another common method of fishing the med. is slow trolling with live baits targeting Amberjacks and Dentex, this is why most diesel powered boats from Italy come standard with trolling valves. Regarding your question which boat is the best, I can only say which one is my favorite, and that would be the 3B craft 37. It is an express style with tower. In recent years however most larger game boats are american made. Especially on the west coast and around Sardinia you will a lot of Cabos, Pursuits, Hatteras etc.. Another interesting trend I have seen in Italy is the use of more and more large outboard powered boats like the Regulators, Hydra Sports, Gradys and Boston Whalers.
Nice one Aram!
She'll be fine, she's a dab hand at getting the ropes and fenders out anyway (she crews her old man's Azimut 46 when it's on charter), assuming there is room onboard for her to simply read a book and fuss about getting our lunch ready (she'll kill me if she reads this!).
Damn Tom, you also went & chose a sea worthy bird? My mrs was kinda looking forward to your mrs babysitting while my mrs came with us while your mrs didn't. She really misses the boat rides.
So we'll just have to drop my 20month old boy at nursery first but do you think it's too early for my 6month old girl to start on Atlantic Bonito? She's quite strong, she already manages to pull a complete stand full of rods over if you ever park the pram too near one!
No probs mate. Mrs Bettle would be more than welcome, especially if she's as big a nutter as you! I expect at least 3 one-page articles in 3 different magazines, that's all.
Aram (www.gonefishing.tv)
Tom got it sussed for you, European hull (essex), top speed with twin 120 volvos 32knts, low gunwales (800mm)
and comes with its` own conservatory for colder days :clap2:
Roddy Hays
27-10-2008, 15:30
Lordy, I'd forgotten all about your ride over that trip - you had another little boat with you too.... stuck out on the end of the moorings I seem to remember. No disrespect intended anyway !
About Luhrs.... sorry to be a damp squib. I'll put my thinking hat on and see what I can come up with. North Sea, huh ? Hmm....... I know what you mean by that, and I guess if we reversed the process and said we were bringing a US boat to the UK to fish, and it had to be reasonably priced, it could be a Delta, www.deltaboats.com as one example. Henriques also have outfitted some of their hulls with long cabins too - the new 35 would be a fine choice. They sell hulls alone, so that may well be a way to go if you can find a finisher your end.
But what you're looking for is something out of the ordinary that will fulfill your requirements and make enough noise to really set the world buzzing. More thought needed. I know one idea that has always appealed to me is a small trailerable craft, probably something impervious to knocks (so a poly-boat instead of an alloy one maybe), with a 4-stroke on the back and enough creature comforts for a day at sea in the tropics and in the cold (so a small pilothouse) that you could trailer around behind a decent 4x4. Ferry routes abound - you could do bluefin in Donegal and Croatia, blue marlin fishing in the Algarve and La Gomera (ferry from Spain to the Canaries), cod in Norway, swordfish off Corsica, the list is endless. Instead of putting 200K sterling into a big boat, use it to buy fuel and ferry tickets !
What boat ? A 235 Triumph ? A 599 Frontier from Polycraft ? A Mac 600 ? Hmm, the possibilities look good.....
what do you guys think about that one?
it is an ocean sport, build in Washington State w/twin diesels
I have never been on one, but looks pretty bad a$$ esp. for northern waters:thumbs:
TomBettle
27-10-2008, 15:54
Tom got it sussed for you, European hull (essex), top speed with twin 120 volvos 32knts, low gunwales (800mm)
and comes with its` own conservatory for colder days :clap2:
Well that's the liveaboard mothership sorted! :clap3:
Thanks Stan
TomBettle
27-10-2008, 15:57
Damn Tom, you also went & chose a sea worthy bird? My mrs was kinda looking forward to your mrs babysitting while my mrs came with us while your mrs didn't. She really misses the boat rides.
So we'll just have to drop my 20month old boy at nursery first but do you think it's too early for my 6month old girl to start on Atlantic Bonito? She's quite strong, she already manages to pull a complete stand full of rods over if you ever park the pram too near one!
No probs mate. Mrs Bettle would be more than welcome, especially if she's as big a nutter as you! I expect at least 3 one-page articles in 3 different magazines, that's all.
Aram (www.gonefishing.tv)
It won't actually be Mrs Bettle as my other half won't be pleased (still waiting for the divorce after 5 years), but t'other half has half decent sea legs. Can't fish for toffee, but she can boil a kettle, make sarnies and grab us a cold one (Plllease don't tell her I said any of this).
As for her being a nutter, I can assure you that if you lot think you take the p1ss out of me.... when you are with her, my life won't be worth living! I'll go and sit myself up on the bow while you all poke fun!
TomBettle
27-10-2008, 16:06
What boat ? A 235 Triumph ? A 599 Frontier from Polycraft ? A Mac 600 ? Hmm, the possibilities look good.....
It's kind of where my mind was taking me, but roational moulding doesn't lend itself well to Pilot House styles. No disrespect, but the smaller cuddys look horrible. My idea was take the basic hull without the console and then stick a grp are tray moulded Pilot house on top.
I broached the subject when I had a meeting with Genmar at Southampton Boat Show and they were about as interested as an uninterested thing at a how to show how little interest you have at a disinterested convention....
Instead tey tried to flog me the Seaswirl dealership and would fit them out with their "Alaska Pack".
I do like the Triumph and if one could come with a Pilot House in glass it would be perfect for North Europe, but they make 35,000 boats a year so changing their design for my 40 or 50 doesn't come into it.
Come on plastic fantastics, someone make an attractive one with a Pilot House!
Tom
It's kind of where my mind was taking me, but roational moulding doesn't lend itself well to Pilot House styles. No disrespect, but the smaller cuddys look horrible. My idea was take the basic hull without the console and then stick a grp are tray moulded Pilot house on top.
I broached the subject when I had a meeting with Genmar at Southampton Boat Show and they were about as interested as an uninterested thing at a how to show how little interest you have at a disinterested convention....
Instead tey tried to flog me the Seaswirl dealership and would fit them out with their "Alaska Pack".
I do like the Triumph and if one could come with a Pilot House in glass it would be perfect for North Europe, but they make 35,000 boats a year so changing their design for my 40 or 50 doesn't come into it.
Come on plastic fantastics, someone make an attractive one with a Pilot House!
Tom
How do you like the Shamrocks (270 Mackinaw, 260 Mariner)??
TomBettle
27-10-2008, 16:31
How do you like the Shamrocks (270 Mackinaw, 260 Mariner)??
They are interesting chappies on they?
Their mix of deep vee and flattish aft, but narrow beam and shaft drive.
You guys will know more about how they will behave than I could imagine.
How are they going to handle?
Backing up will be fun, but can't be any worse than my little semi d's I sell now, it just takes some getting used to.
Anyone know them from experience?
Cost.... Don't seem too bad at the upper end, but the small ones are very pricey for what you get, or is it just me being tight?
Nice looking boats, a lot of North European appeal....
Thanks Maguro
Tom
TomBettle
27-10-2008, 16:41
.....and then I stumbled on there Defiance range....
Interesting. More budget end, but real UK / North Europe appeal.
Very narrow beam, so would be very keen to know what they were like on the drift or at anchor.
Tom,
the only Shamrock I have been on was a 29 ft with twin Yanmars (out of production), obviously the handling of that boat will not compare in any way to a single engine w/keel drive.
What I can say is , that qualit and workmanship seemed to be quite good and that the brand enjoys a good reputation.
Another manufacturer you might want to check out is called "Blackman", especially the model "26 outerbanks".
They are made in San Diego, and all are made to order, so I don't know how interesting this is to you business wise.
www.blackmanboats.com
Tom also check
parkerboats.net
It won't actually be Mrs Bettle as my other half won't be pleased (still waiting for the divorce after 5 years), but t'other half has half decent sea legs. Can't fish for toffee, but she can boil a kettle, make sarnies and grab us a cold one (Plllease don't tell her I said any of this).
As for her being a nutter, I can assure you that if you lot think you take the p1ss out of me.... when you are with her, my life won't be worth living! I'll go and sit myself up on the bow while you all poke fun!
:idea:formerbutstill mrs Bettle is waiting for you to launch your mothership!!! :eek: Careful announcing the Bettle empire on such a public forum Tom :secret:
Wetting myself.....I can just about picture it, you at the front, us in the back, you bringing up a 2 ounce damsil fish from 80 metres down & your mrs throwing the first jab...."you want your harness on for the next one sweatheart?" :roll1:
Aram (www.gonefishing.tv)
TomBettle
27-10-2008, 17:38
:idea:formerbutstill mrs Bettle is waiting for you to launch your mothership!!! :eek: Careful announcing the Bettle empire on such a public forum Tom :secret:
Wetting myself.....I can just about picture it, you at the front, us in the back, you bringing up a 2 ounce damsil fish from 80 metres down & your mrs throwing the first jab...."you want your harness on for the next one sweatheart?" :roll1:
Aram (www.gonefishing.tv)
You buggerawf Aram. Don't go saying nuffin to the ex.
Anyway, it's someone elses money I am hoping to help spend. I'll be building their empire not my own! :bleh:
Thanks for those links Maguro.
The Blackman boats were quite interesting, but very dated looking.
Also, something I hadn't thought about, from a resale point of view, boats constructed in the Western US tend to be a lot more expensive than those over on the Eastern Seabord.... simply the shipping costs.
The Parker boats were fairly smart. Downside to them is the lack of inboard options. Us brits (and to an extent other parts of Europe) haven't really mastered the bigger Pilot Houses in outboard only.
Thanks again for your input, it's really useful.
Tom
Roddy Hays
27-10-2008, 17:50
Tom,
Luis has thrown some interesting boats at you, but I don't think they're what you're after - no disrespect intended. Similiar boats exist in Europe already (both Euro-built and US imports) and I don't think your importing the US variety will automatically lead to sales. Unless you're intending to maybe take this route : http://www.pacificpilothouse.com/ and do some gluing yourself, I might suggest another route.
If you're in the industry and know all the right people, why not buy one of those PowerGlide 30 hulls and fit it out as a sportfisherman. Start a thread where we can all see the build as it progresses, make suggestions, chip in and generally help, AND keep a running tab at the same time so we can see what it's costing. I suspect you'll end up with a finished, exceptional boat, which will more than likely be sold before the thread finishes. I'd build it at a yard or garage on the south coast (easy delivery to Europe then). You and your boss know all the right connections for parts procurement, you must have the names of more than a few GRP people, mechanics, electricians etc in your little black book - I think it'd be a winner, personally.
There may well be people reading this thread right now waiting for just such a little boat to come along - you could be well and truly surprised.
Oh, by the way, nowt much wrong with Shamrocks until you have to work on motors. Then you're very tight for access. I'm not sure the current build quality is the same as the old either. If you want a diesel inboard in a small boat there are some much better boats around, and personally I'd go custom anyway and see someone in Carolina for the money. You'd get a boat made to measure for your height and reach, which is vital on a boat that size where everything has to be just "right". Whereas Blackman is an fairly cult brand with a loyal following, Fallaron might suit your bill better. In the larger Californian boat sizes I've always liked the look of the Radovich too, which with the amount of miles you might have to travel in Euro waters might be just the ticket.
If you have contacts in North Carolina, there's a mould there from the old 24 Topaz, which a fella was turning into something called a Bimini back in '93, last time I looked. He's disappeared off the radar but you might find the mould and it makes a lovely little twin-engined boat. From memory the one I saw had 160 Yanmars in it.......just checked the web and it does appear as though Bimini might still be in production.
Another good trailer boat I have had my eye on for some time and might have bought at one stage is Maritime - http://www.maritimeboats.com/overvw/index.html
Built by some former workers at Boston Whaler, they seem also to have a cult following, but it's their pilothouse range that intrigues me. There might be some merit in that range for you if want something a bit different.
Hi Roddy,
I believe the Bimini is back in production. At least the 24 CC, I am not shure about the 29 express.
Just did a search on yachtworld, and there are indeed some 2008/2009 Bimini 24s on the market, but I think the price is quite steep for a 24 footer.
TomBettle
27-10-2008, 18:12
Cheers guys
The downside to the Powerglide as something to sell is that it will always remain a small production product. Rod is selling off some of his moulds, but I believe that is one he is keeping.
Getting him to produce the hull, deck and superstructure is actually something I would probably consider, but (and this is meant with no disrespect Rod) he is not known for his time keeping and if I was to fall into the numbers I would need to make it viable there is no way he'd manage.
Parts, labour, shipwrights etc are coming our of our ears, but becoming boat builders rather than sellers is not really on the agenda.
It's a shame, if I knew there were customers waiting we could produce a stunning little boat there, as a hard top, as an express cruiser and probably as a pilot house.
I think it needs the option of twin shafts, but that would really need a little more investigation.
Tom
Roddy Hays
27-10-2008, 18:30
Tom,
How would doing just the hulls work and we get the rest done elsewhere ?
Tom,
if you are looking for smaller boats (24 - 27ft) with optional diesel power, shaft driven, you should also look at Tuccoli, Bimax and Polyform from Italy. They are producing fishing boats in that size (21ft and up) with direct drive diesels.
The layout, and fishing features on these boats is much more "american" than on e.g. the Antares, Merry Fishers, Arvors and so on.
Ups I forgot that I wanted to attach a pic!
This is a Tuccoli 25 with twin 100 Hp Yanmars
TomBettle
27-10-2008, 18:52
Tom,
How would doing just the hulls work and we get the rest done elsewhere ?
Pm sent Roddy.
In honesty, for various reasons, I think Rod would need to be persuaded to sell the mould.
It's a shame as he was due (today) to be selling his 535 mould too.
The two together would have made a nice little family (although no money in making the little ones).
Clearly you see some potential in the boat, but I would rather have more control over any builds (from the hull up) than I have when they are 160miles away and I have a full time job here.
Tom
TomBettle
27-10-2008, 19:00
Ups I forgot that I wanted to attach a pic!
This is a Tuccoli 25 with twin 100 Hp Yanmars
That's another pretty little boat Maguro.
The problem we have when selling in Europe, Northern Europe in particular. Those big production line, Arvors (I am a dealer for incidentally), Merry Fishers (I used to be a dealer for these) etc etc is that the styling appeals to our market.
As members of the boat buying public rather than skippers and true salty old sea dogs, the American boats make our jaws drop and we go "Caw, look at that beast, I bet it goes fast", but we'll go and buy the Euro model as it serves our needs better.
The US market does have pilot houses, but they are simply their express boats with roofs and doors put on them and as such they haven't quite got the same flowing look, at least not to the eye of us buyers.
The euro boats are semi d, not very quick, but look like something we recognise and feel comfortable with.
It's very hard, to find a brand that will work well (and as importantly sell well) in blue water, in the tropics and also in our chillier climates north of Biscay.
When we crack it, there is probably some money to be made. But, making one or two a year isn't enough to support a business on. We'd need to be making 10's to make a 2 man plus contractors firm work and multiples of ten before we can start taking much of a dividend.
Sorry this thread is starting to vear a bit off topic and turning to "Tom's next crazy business idea".
I didn't mean that to happen.
Tom
Hey Tom,
indeed I find this thread to be very interesting, and entertaining as well!
I have been very much involved (on a private basis) in buying and transporting several boats from the US to Europe, taking advantage of the weak dollar, unfortunatly that seems to be over now.
From a purely monetary / business point of view I would suspect that you could get the most sales in Europe out of a brand like Baha Cruisers. They are building express styles, flybridges, and pilohouses (something like that) and offer straight inboards i/o's and outboards as options. They are priced very competitively, however I heard that they are a "mid tier" boat at most, and I have never climbed on one. Also I have no idea how they would stack up to comparable European models.
TomBettle
27-10-2008, 19:49
Something like that Baha is about as close as I have found from a US built boat to what would be recognised by our buyers. They are also the right side of the continent to make shipping almost sensible.
A little dated looking, but retro may be coming back in vogue. It is in many other aspects of life.
...still got the US feel, which isn't a bad thing, but will it be warmed to in Northern Europe? Still a little narrow in the beam (better than the others, a good compromise?) compared with the Euro counterparts and it is this beam (and a small keel) that gives good drifting qualities (but not so good elsewhere).
Oh it's all so confusing!!!!
Maybe we should all get our heads together and design the perfect boat for Northern Europe, the Med and the North Atlantic?
A few superstructure changes, the closest to a perfect allround hull?
...you know what, this time next year we'll all be millionairres!!!!
Now let me take another look at that Powerglide 30.... Hmmmm, it's quite retro too.
Captain Spike
27-10-2008, 20:00
I rather like these, the 28's have a good reputation.
http://www.trueworldmarine.com/
Lol:clap2::clap2: good plan bro, I especially like the millonaire part of it.
But seriously, I have no idea about the costs involved of actually building a boat yourself, and given the current state of the world's financial markets, and economy, it might be a smarter idea of not taking too much risk, and just selling what is already there.
Just out of curiosity do you sell more new boats or used?
TomBettle
27-10-2008, 20:31
Just out of curiosity do you sell more new boats or used?
In 2007 the dealership I worked for won Jeanneau "Power's" global dealer of the year award.
We had sold over 130 new Jeanneau from 17 feet to 50 feet. I think we also had 15% of their entire Prestige 46' build (not an angling boat).
We also sold about 70 used boats (the actual number escapes me).
In 2008 from Christmas '07 until the end of April the dealership sold about 15 new Jeanneau and a handful of used boats. I left in April to set up as the local dealer in Poole. The guys I was working with sold another two or three boats (not me leaving, the economy!) until August and sadly went into administration then.
Me personally as a sub dealer, I've sold about 3 new boats since April and a dozen used boats.
New boats built in mainland Europe have gone up by 20% to the British buyer. The US boats have also gine up by about 25% since the Summer. Couple with that, the economy is on it's knees.
Buyers are there, but for the used boats, IF they are bargains. The boats we are selling today are some 20% beneath what the market would have paid for them in a stronger economy.
Not great!
Chin up old chap. We'll pull through.
Tom
I am sorry to hear that, but what you said is exactly how I thought it would be.
For me as a consumer it is nice to see the pries drop, but on the other hand a lot of people are loosing their jobs right now in the boating industrie in the USA.
A lot of boatbuilders have already closed for good, and a whole bunch are right on the edge of going down, and probably will not urvive the current crisis.
:g:hey maybe that's a good opportunity to get some cheap molds?!
Luis Nabais
27-10-2008, 23:17
I agree with Roddy in many things that he says.
I can not talk too much at this moment but there´s one overseas brand that is trying to build their boats in Europe to cut the transport prices and have a real Big Game fishing boat build in Europe.
The boats have a very good reputation in the sea as well as for Big Game fishing.
I beleive soon we´ll have the first models ready and I want to try them as soon as possible.
I can say that they are going to be build in Spain by one of the best Spanish builders at the moment but none of the one´s had been mentioned here until now.
The models run from 25 to 41 feet and the smaller models have several engines and drive options but, normal, I have to try them to see their behave but, as soon as I can, I´ll let you all know.
The ideal boat, I believe, is not invented yet and having the diferent sea conditions that we have in Europe makes the things even more dificult.
Also things are changing and, if a couple years ago, most of the boat owners wanted a boat more for summer time, now they want to use the boat, if possible, all the year round and, this way, the ideal boat should be able to face the warm summers as well as the cold winters.
In other hand it is good if the boat has some feminine skills as they want to be a part of all the things each time more and more and even if they go to the boat 2 or 3 times a year, is good that when they go there they like it, just to keep the peace at home.
Not easy to invent it for sure but, we can keep trying.
P.S.: Mr. Stan M: don´t tell me that it is a photo of the future terrorising boat of the Portuguese waters...
TomBettle
27-10-2008, 23:29
I am not exactly a wealth of knowledge when it comes to Spanish builders and can only think of a couple of others. The only one of substance I can think of, but not exactly a "great" builder (very good though) is Starfisher.
A couple of others spring to mind, but none that would be up for it. Maybe Astondoa have the facilities?
I know we have more or less trodden them into the ground, but Luhrs tried and failed miserably with their plant in Portland.
Give us a clue Luis, who might it be as I am looking for some genuine opportunities and he who gets in first...
Tom
P.S.: Mr. Stan M: don´t tell me that it is a photo of the future terrorising boat of the Portuguese waters...[/QUOTE]
That Bertarm of yours wont stand a chance Luis. I may even keep the conservatory on the back. :yeah::yeah:
You and Ricardo, me and Quinito, you would be as well to give in now.:bleh::bleh:
At the moment the only terroising going on is by the rain, hence the shack !
Luis Nabais
27-10-2008, 23:50
Tom:
At the moment I can not say more except that is not one of the mentioned yet but I think we can have some news very soon, maybe next month and as soon as I can, I´ll let you know but, as I said before, is better we see if the boats are going to behave like the originals.
Thanks yet again guys. Genuinely really interesting stuff, and the business angle is interesting too. Thanks Tom for educating us on the perceptions of the typical buyer. Certainly worth remembering that we fishermen make up a small proportion of the boat buying public and what the majority like in the view of styling and looks is often totally different to us. I have no intention of going into either boatbuilding or boat selling ... but looking at the number of people that I saw in the Algarve, and I understand there are also quite large numbers of sport fishing vessels in Spain and (thanks to Maguro's contributions) in Italy, chasing big game fish from vessels many of which really are quite unsuited for fishing, it does make me wonder is there any room in the market for a vessel - a classic sportfisher, or maybe a cat - priced say in the Rodman range and with similar interior appointments, but better laid out for gamefishing, with a hull design better suited for offshore running. The layout is relatively easy to achieve and build quality in several yards in Britain, Ireland and even in Europe is, as discussed, adequate to excellent. The hull designs are out there. What's really required is for an individual on the sales/promotion side with the gift of the gab, with true big game credentials, speaking more than one language, to link up with a manufacturer, provide input at the design stage and then to do the marketing. Step forward Roddy... :clap3: Seriously - Tom and Luis might be able to tell us how viable something like a Roddy Hays edition Lochin 366, for instance, or Powerglide whatever, might be.
So it does seem that the UK/Irish hulls take the cake for seaworthiness thus far. Is there anything in Scandinavia, Holland or Germany worth considering - surely there must be some good workboat or pilot boat hulls out there. Going off topic briefly I recall a lot of reports during the war that mentioned how superior the E-boats were to our MTBs. Those were steel vessels I think compared to the MTBs which were triple diagonal mahogany (Oh to be able to build hulls from that now :cry:) .... Speaking of, are there any builders in Europe that cold-mold?
My experience of comparing UK/European vs US hulls of the same length is somewhat limited, so I very much appreciate all the comments that have come in. From what I have seen the 33 foot Lochin compares well to the Bertram 33 (I might have mentioned this in an earlier post) as a sea boat, and as far as I could see in terms of manoeuverability as well. The American vessel I spent the most time on was a Hatteras 43 of late 1980s vintage and this really was an excellent sea boat as was the Bertram 46 with MAN repower. I'm not sure if Bertram and Hatteras ever made many vessels for pilot/work boat duty (oddly enough the Thai marine police used to and for all I know still operate a number of Bertram 31s) - actually I would like to know more what builders make vessels for that type of work in the States - but from what I've been able to see I'm not sure whether the hull form can be faulted for that. I'd like to be on more UK craft to come to a more rounded perspective but so far the two vessels from this side of the Atlantic that have most impressed me in heavy weather were the Nelson 40 and the Interceptor 38 which have a good riding solid feel that I really liked. Not yet had a chance to fish US hulls of equivalent length except a Bertram 375 but that was in nice weather - if I do, I'll add on any relevant observations. Certainly the 36 Riveira is significantly poorer as a sea boat than either of the above two. I was hoping more UK charter anglers would weigh in as there must be many that have gone out wrecking from the bigger Lochins (38 and 40), Aquabell, Offshore 105, Aquastar and so on. Can someone get Ron in here to comment on his Aquabell 33?
I was also just thinking, in respect of sea conditions, that what Luis observed was quite right. Most of the European vessels have to slow down as soon as they encounter breaking chop. Not even true heavy weather but that mix of swell and chop in breaking three to four foot offshore seas which a deeper vee would just eat up. Once again it is painfully obvious that a lot of Euro vessels are just too fat up in front and pound like absolute bitches. Although their owners might find some consolation in the knowledge that a Cabo 40 is just as bad :blink: I think most anglers don't require their vessels to perform in true heavy weather, but good cruising performance in rough fishing weather is so advantageous as to be almost a requirement, and this is something that the Euro builders seem to be deficient in. One thing that the Rodmans, which are probably the best ones I've seen from the continental builders thus far, have over the Jeanneau/Beneteau designs is a higher freeboard. This does make a big difference.
More general thoughts ... Tom, re the Jeanneau 695 it wasn't the most comfortable experience sluicing back from the canyon at 10 knots (if that). But I have to admit that thing trolled along pretty well and certainly had no problems raising fish. I fished four days on her and the results were 2 blue marlin raised of which one was hooked and lost, plus something like 4 whites. But then little single diesels have an uncanny habit of calling in the fish. Fighting fish was hampered by the fact the helmsman did not have a very good view, but on that occasion I was able to direct the fight and we managed very well. I have an account of the day in my log and if you ever think the Jeanneau owners' club might want to read something a little different from their usual fare, just let me know.
From the deckhand perspective the additional difficulty involved in having to work from a higher platform is pretty significant, to me anyway. I've dealt with several white marlin that got snagged on big lures with two hook rigs that would have been a real headache to have to deal with from something the height of the Lara Jade (in fact if I had to deal with such a situation I'd probably reach for the bent tag pole). It can be worked around, but I'd rather not have to, as I'm sure most other crew. Handling fish is a big enough part of the game that in my opinion a good gamefishing vessel should not be too high off the water if at all possible.
Best regards
P.
ps. Stan, weren't you involved with a boat called the Magnum some time ago? What became of it? Any opinions on her performance, economy, etc etc etc?
Luis Nabais
27-10-2008, 23:53
That Bertarm of yours wont stand a chance Luis. I may even keep the conservatory on the back. :yeah::yeah:
You and Ricardo, me and Quinito, you would be as well to give in now.:bleh::bleh:
Sure we´ll have very good times together and I can not wait for that.
At the moment the only terroising going on is by the rain, hence the shack !
He,he,he.
Still with sandals, shorts and polo shirts....
Dustin, I just skippered that boat, it was owned by a club.
Not really certain what became of it, last I heard it changed hands a couple of times to who knows and then sank somewhere in the Irish sea.
It was 52ft, steel hull designed on the Arun lifeboat. Twin 400HP Mermaid Magnum turbo diesels (hence the name) to twin discs. The weight was a bit much for the 800hp, (24 ton) 1000 or 1200 would have been more suited. Even in steel the hull design allowed for a top speed around the 23-25knts with 2 x 600 but even with the 4`s the fuel economy was not that great, around 14 galls an hour each engine (from memory), no idea what 2 x 600 would have been. The 400`s gave a top speed of 18knts at 2350 rpm.
Very good sea boat mind you, (when it was`nt leaking)
you could keep the top speed continual through some pretty rough ones, it just threw them aside. Following sea with a 17ft transom, deep V semi displacement, oh dear ! interesting.
Sure we´ll have very good times together and I can not wait for that.
He,he,he.
Still with sandals, shorts and polo shirts....
Sandals shorts and polo shirt indeed, bet it`s still the yellow shorts as well :g:
Luis Nabais
28-10-2008, 01:08
Dustin:
Don´t think that because you saw a few persons wanting to make Big Game fishing in Portugal, it means we have a potencial and good market for it.
Don´t forget that what you saw was almost the same boats and the same persons in all the Tournaments and just because there are people interested on boats and Big Game, that doesn´t mean they have the money to buy the boats or even decent tackle.
To help that, and talking about the Portuguese case, we have a big problem with Marinas without places and the high price that they cost here.
The price for a Spanish boat is not so low as you think.
First you have to remember that because a idiot law in Spain, boats with more than 7,49 meters pay one extra tax of 12% (not VAT) when they register.
According to that, many Spanish builders made their boats calling them 8 and something meters but if you look carefully they all have the same real lenght in the hull, 7,49 meters.
As we all know, one meter of boat is a lot of money and to keep the things balanced, they make the same in the bigger models and so,usually, count with one meter less than the model name says.
Their prices, for a new boat, are almost the same or even more than a USA boat the same real size most of the times, and when we want to put some optionals on them, for sure, you´ll have a final price at the same level or higher than one american boat.
Where they are cheap is in the second hand market and there you can find really big diferences from the price for a new one.
You are absolutly right when you talk about the sea conditions and for me to be in one boat where you feel all the chops and seam to be going to break in several pieces when facing short period 3 to 4 foot waves, is not my ideal as a confort.
If we are talking about a heavier sea then is better to not be out there on them.
I remember a couple years ago, end of a Tournament day, and I was in my little Bertram in a sea around 5 foot waves with a period around 3 seconds between them.
We were running pretty good and the end of the day we enter to the river trought Sta. Maria Cape.
From all the other boats out there we hear one that, because he had no fish, and with the VHF open, saying he was "slowly going home" (he was based in other harbour).
It was one 12 meters european boat.
As soon as he crossed the Cape we hear a lot of noise inside the boat and many *#!&%?»*/)% words.
Then the silence, followed by one "well, today we´ll stay here in Olhão".
The fact that many, most, of the persons don´t really care to have a boat able to face the sea is the same reason why most of the people just remember how good is to not have a teeth pain when they have it.
The same way we can put perfectly a Brasiliano trolling in a light spinning rod, no problem.
You just have a problem if a Blue goes there.
The same with the boats and since they, most of the time, and here the things are more serious, don´t realise the risks that they may get, they don´t care about the fact that their boats are not really made for a serious sea.
To build a boat is not that dificult and for sure with the help of all of us we were going to realise something pretty good by one european company but, here is the big problem:
Where are the potencial clients with money for that and are we sure we can make it a comercial sucess?
The fact is that there are so many boat builders all over the world that is not easy to enter with new models in the market from a new brand and, the only chance was to have the interest from one solid reputation boat builder because, for sure, no one was going to buy a boat without strong market and clients references, at least in a nice quantity to make it profitable.
P.S.: I have a special theory about fishing in Picos but that is for other place and we can go to that later.
Roddy Hays
28-10-2008, 01:20
Which model are Albemarle going to build first, Luis ? It's a brave route and I wish them well - it's not a bad product and the boats are good sea boats, that's for sure.
Luis Nabais
28-10-2008, 01:31
Sandals shorts and polo shirt indeed, bet it`s still the yellow shorts as well :g:
You enjoy your rain and don´t be jealous.
In case you need to remember how is a blue sky I can send you a photo or, better, pick you at the airport.
Luis Nabais
28-10-2008, 01:37
Which model are Albemarle going to build first, Luis ? It's a brave route and I wish them well - it's not a bad product and the boats are good sea boats, that's for sure.
Nice try and very well done with the boat sizes but it is not the Albemarle.
It is not one american brand and probably after Barcelona Boat Show, starting on the 8 November, we can talk about this.
Roddy Hays
28-10-2008, 10:21
Shucks Luis, well it was worth a shot ! :whistling
I assume you're talking about a corporate owner who is thinking of several boats from their portfolio. If that is the case I can think who it might be, well there's not that many contenders really......
It's still a tempting idea to just buy a hull and do it up, but the start realities of the economic climate really do need consideration, as you and Tom have pointed out. I must admit, this was one of my points when I mentioned the mother-ship operation in the CV's. For those who like bluewater fishing but cannot afford the $5,000 - 10,000 odd price-tag that a week's marlin fishing aboard a top notch boat entails, then a week aboard a mothership with the ability to do what you want to do must surely offer a viable alternative ?
Personally, I wonder if Tom might not throw the idea open on the main forum to gauge response. There's enough members on this site to sample a typical market response from just one country I would think. And I think he'd get far more mileage form the other European countries anyway.
Maybe a poll with a question like:
Would you be interested in a weeks holiday aboard a mothership in the Cape Verdes ? Kayaks would be complimentary, and 18' centre consoles and a 33' gameboat would also be availabe. Inclusive price for a week's fishing, flights and all, would be about $2500.
1. Yes, sign me up NOW !!!
2. Shows good potential, send more info
3. I'd be interested in the future
4. If I had nothing else to do I'd give it a poke
5. No thanks, I'm saving money for a troll from the dinghy on Saundersfoot Beach
No harm would be done and Tom would get some decent input and maybe some ideas to point him in the right direction.
Then, if it dies like a frozen squid on a summer's day, we can get back to building a damn good game-boat before the US industry beat us to it......:)
Dustin - not sure about north European builders, but I do know that Halmatic and others have been exporting boats of that ilk overseas for generations, so it may be that those countries import vessels like that. I am sure that there would be some built locally but not sure how to go about finding out more in detail.
Having said that, if Tom does want to go down the boat building route it makes far more sense for him to build locally to Poole and do everything in the UK....... or import from the US, of course. I, like so many other game fishermen, always believe that we can do better than a professional boat builder.......:)
I do know though that the long "build" threads over on the US forums attract so much attention that the boat being built could often have been sold well before completion.
Maybe there's some mileage in Tom trying to do up a hull between a group of people who each stump up a certain initial investment, and then fall out by the wayside as the project progresses, interested parties still "in" having the right to buy those shares before they are offered to other interested parties. Or maybe not, of course. I'll go and find a drainpipe to crawl up .....:headhurt:
TomBettle
28-10-2008, 10:45
Interesting stuff Roddy.
I have, however, tried on here to get sensible feeback from the masses.
With respect to the masses and I mean this entirely in the right way, they are keener on kayaking at Saundersfoot or fishing the mouth of the Hamble in their Microplus for doggies than they are in spending $3,000 for a week aboard a Mothership.
Again, with respect, to the vast majority on here, $3,000 is probably more than their boat is worth.
This was brought home when trying to find a fishing partner to join me with Zak in CV.
I was getting responses suggesting I was taking the mickey etc.
In the end, Dave West sent a quick message to one or two guys from SCB1 and I had two partners within 24 hours.
....We can by all means post a poll, but I would hazard a guess that the best gauge will be from a more specialist forum.
...In fact I'll post one in the boat angling section, just to see what happens. I may eat my own words and we could get a great response.
On a different note, anyone any comments on Ocean Yachts, specifically the new 37 Billfish they have. Good and Bad.
Roddy Hays
28-10-2008, 11:23
One place you could post a poll and see the results might be the Cananx forum - in the Cafe. There's more than a few continentals lurk there and you might get a better viewpoint. Dave W (or Dustin maybe, though he's much more keen on the blue marlin side of things :)) could also maybe do some legwork there as well. It'd be interesting to see what replies you get.
As regards the Billfisher, I haven't heard anything bad from people I know, but take that with a pinch of salt. No outlandish rumours though ! That really would be a punt to bring here though.
By the way, another US brand that could be of interest might be Strike. They've come a long way in the past few years and as an owner-run yard they might well be amenable to doing hull deals or part builds. They customise pretty freely too so you'd be able to develop a boat just as you want. Pie in the sky ?
http://www.strikeyachts.com/images/yachts/Strike26/26-01.jpg
You could fit a really pretty pilothouse to this one without too much rigmarole :
http://www.strikeyachts.com/images/yachts/Strike26/26-07.jpg
They have a pretty good reputation and several are used as mothership attendants in the central american regions. They're durable and uncomplicated. The 37 Walkaround is a favourite of mine to go and look at boatshows when they have it there.
This very model could well do double duty for you in the CV's !
http://www.strikeyachts.com/images/yachts/Strike37WalkAround/S-37-161.jpg
TomBettle
28-10-2008, 11:36
I ask about the Billfish as I've been talking to Spencership about the Sabre and Back Cove brands for the UK (Sea Ventures were the distributor, but they have sadly gond pop). Spencership (monaco) just happen to be Ocean Yachts arm in Europe.
Let's have a look at Stirke, that 37 is rather sexy isn't it.
Blinged up with a bit of teak too... I didn't think our friends over the pond went that way?
Would you be interested in a weeks holiday aboard a mothership in the Cape Verdes ? Kayaks would be complimentary, and 18' centre consoles and a 33' gameboat would also be availabe. Inclusive price for a week's fishing, flights and all, would be about $2500.
1. Yes, sign me up NOW !!!
2. Shows good potential, send more info
3. I'd be interested in the future
4. If I had nothing else to do I'd give it a poke
5. No thanks, I'm saving money for a troll from the dinghy on Saundersfoot Beach
If the mothership is similar to this one sign me up for the first two weeks of July for the next 10 years!!! http://www.nomadsoftheseas.com/mothership/index.php the Bell 407 is a nice touch and great for transfers...:punk:
TomBettle
28-10-2008, 11:59
Jay?
That may be fractionally more plush than what I have in mind...
Mine will be lovely, but possibly not quite at that level.
That said, my rates will be about 1/6 their prices! OMG, did you see them!
Tom
Roddy Hays
28-10-2008, 12:17
Here's a challenge for you - what make is this boat from the US ?
http://newimages.yachtworld.com/1/8/0/0/0/1800038_1.jpg?1193758401000
Tom,
I would def. be interested in going on your mothership in CV. Did you know that there was a mothership operation on CV years ago. I believe it was operated by some Germans, and they used a converted tourist boat from the Baltic Sea as their mothership. It was a very basic operation, and I think the boat sank a few years ago.
By the way the Strikes that Roddy brought into the discussion are first class. I have been on a few Strikes, and they are very well build, that 37 WA is one of my dream boats - well one day when I am rich and famous:marinheir
However their hulls are generally a little wet riding, so you definetly need a full enclosure, or pilothouse for northern waters. But every Strike is build to order and can be completely customised
Roddy Hays
28-10-2008, 13:58
I found a pic of a non CC Bimini 24 on the web - bear in mind this has (or if not this one you CAN have) twin shaft-drive motors. A real little pocket battleship:
http://www.boattest.com/All-boats/AllBoatsThumbs/BiminiMarine/BiminiMarine-245SX-run.jpg.
More info here : http://www.tournamentyachts.com/245_sport_express.htm
Interesting about the wet-ride with the Strikes. I must say it wouldn't bother me - I was always taught that a wet boat was a safe boat, even if it might make life uncomfortable. I wonder if you could partly cure Mr Strike's problem with some screw-on spray rails.......
TomBettle
28-10-2008, 14:06
In my own "brief" way, I have described the idea in the boat angling section and posted a pole.
The usual jokes have already started, but hopefully it will grow into something fairly useful.
Please go and take a look, vote and join in.
Thanks Maguro, I take it your cabin will be a super deluxe upgrade and you'll be chartering your own boat to yourself!? I can put you down for three consecutive years? Good. You're in the diary!
Roddy: Interesting one that.
Now I have no idea what she is and you guys have VASTLY more knowledge of this style, but she carries a trawler or launch style hull and is built for more northerly US climates.... Probably North East, less likely Washingtion State builder....
I'll need to do some homework, but she is almost from the same stable as something like the Mainship Sedan, only better built?
I'll have another look later as believe it or not, I have some work to do.
I've just sold a boat.... well blow me down.
A Merry Fisher 925 too! Absolute classic craft.
Tom
TomBettle
28-10-2008, 14:07
Interesting about the wet-ride with the Strikes. I must say it wouldn't bother me - I was always taught that a wet boat was a safe boat, even if it might make life uncomfortable. I wonder if you could partly cure Mr Strike's problem with some screw-on spray rails.......
Yep, I've been taught the same.
I notice they are a lot beamier than the standard US fare. Possibly this added beam creates a more medium vee or steeper chine which in turn kicks up a lot of water?
Roddy,
Have you ever seen or been on a South-cat or just heard from an infatuated ex-owner ?
There`s a couple moored close to me, i`ve been out on one of them and watched the other run close by when i`ve been at anchor.
Nice boats and well finished but neither will run level and they both seem to gently porpoise away as they travel.
Also of consideration must be that they cost 50% more at least than a monohull ?
Dave.
infatuated Cyfish owner.
www.kentcharterfishing.com
congrats on your sale Tom!!!
and you're right, the Strikes are quite beamy, I like it, but the situation in the US is somewhat strange at the moment. the economy going down, record highs on gasoline prices, but yet for many fisherman a 25 - 30 kt cruise doesnt cut it anymore.
you see more and more big outboard powered boats with triples and quads, like the fountain 38, or the jupiter 38,the yellowfins, contenders etc. these boats easily have a top end of 65 - 75 mph, and cruise in the high 50s.
of course to achieve these kind of numbers the hulls cannot carry a wide beam. wasn't it, that just a few years ago anything over 30ft was unthinkable of having outboards??
TomBettle
28-10-2008, 15:01
I've gone and had another look at the Mainship and it's not even a cheap copy of the one Roddy has posted.
I need to keep looking as the Mainship is very MFI in comparison.
http://www.mainship.com/images/models/P34/Low%20Resolution%20Jpegs/P34PartyAtFortLR.jpg
TomBettle
28-10-2008, 15:02
Maguro
I can only dream about a 25knot cruise. My little Merry Fisher 695 is absolutely slogging her guts out at 21 knots and that's light.
Cruise at 12 to 14! Anything over 16knots and it's worthy of a mention.
The smaller Strikes are in my limited mind, more suited to inshore flats fishing?
With the flatter hull profile are crew going to require replacement vertebrae if used in a seaway?
Very low freeboard too.
I can see they'd be good tight in, in calm conditions, chucking big plugs and poppers around, but they look like they's struggle offshore.
It starts changing when you look at the 26 though. That's a nice looking boat and that 37 is lovely.
That 37 kind of ticks all boxes for the bolt on to a mothership.
the small strikes are indeed flats and bay boats, the larger ones are good offshore boats, but they also have prop pockets for a shallow draft, meaning they can get into those shallow inlets of the Bahamas, where many Florida boats are frequently going. And you are right - especially the 29 and the 35 have extremly low freeboards in the cockpit!
You mentioned Mainship - did you know that they belong to the Luhrs corp. - Luhrs, Mainship, Silverton and Hunter Sailboats is one company!!#
I think maybe Albin makes a boat to suit your needs, others to check might be Duffy and Judge.
TomBettle
28-10-2008, 15:27
Yeah, know about the Luhrs corp.
It is through being offered Mainship I also got offered Luhrs. The Mainship was a real dissapointment on quality and if the Luhrs is anything like it, I wouldn't want to touch it. I may sell a cheap and cheerful runaround, but that's what it is sold as, it doesn't pretend to be something else.
I'll take a look at the others, thanks!
Tom
the small strikes are indeed flats and bay boats, the larger ones are good offshore boats, but they also have prop pockets for a shallow draft, meaning they can get into those shallow inlets of the Bahamas, where many Florida boats are frequently going. And you are right - especially the 29 and the 35 have extremly low freeboards in the cockpit!
You mentioned Mainship - did you know that they belong to the Luhrs corp. - Luhrs, Mainship, Silverton and Hunter Sailboats is one company!!#
I think maybe Albin makes a boat to suit your needs, others to check might be Duffy and Judge.
Jay?
That may be fractionally more plush than what I have in mind...
Mine will be lovely, but possibly not quite at that level.
That said, my rates will be about 1/6 their prices! OMG, did you see them!
Tom
You're not wrong about the cost, I could live for a year in Portugal very nicely for the cost of a weeks fishing on the Atmosphere and with the exchange rate back round the $1.50 mark that would include my very expensive rod building habit.
I started the thread to get some feedback on UK/European hulls, not to suggest any business idea to Tom, but if you can pick up some useful ideas Tom, so much the better. On the subject of cruise speed I would like to hear some opinions on what is an acceptable speed for you guys. I personally think if a vessel, especially a smaller one, can maintain a cruise speed in the low 20s in rough fishing conditions it's more than adequate, and the Powerglide 40 doing 3 litres/mile at 21 knots in rough seas = 63 litres/hour is very impressive. Those big centre consoles Maguro mentions seem to be primarily used for fairly specialist fishing jobs (tournament kingfishing) where speed is very important. I really don't think the great majority of American boats cruise anywhere near as fast, especially in rough water. The impression I get is that a lot of US boat talk and especially boat reviews need to be taken with a pinch of salt.
Dave,
Glad to see a Cyfish owner here, I have some familiarity with older Cyfish having seen the Lara Jade waltz around connected to large ****ed off blue marlin on more than a few occasions. Please feel free to weigh in on the good and not so good points of your vessel!
Best regards
P.
Captain Spike
28-10-2008, 23:45
Interesting about the wet-ride with the Strikes. I must say it wouldn't bother me - I was always taught that a wet boat was a safe boat, even if it might make life uncomfortable. .......
As I said, I'm not a life long sailor so what's the thinking behind that?
Roddy Hays
29-10-2008, 01:01
Capt Spike -
I'm of the opinion the saying applies rather more to the construction of the boat and the danger its dismemberment would put you in rather that to the seaworthiness of the vessel, per se. I think it probably comes from days of yore when boats were made of wood and other less salubrious materials, and a boat that got wet was a boat that "gave" with the sea and didn't exert undue forces on parts that could give way - planks, for example.
To give you an idea, if you came off a big wave on a boat and you landed with an almighty bang, with everything coming up short, you'd probably see (1) spray flying out sideways from the hull and (2) captain running down below to check for damage, whether material or primary hull. If you came off the same wave and landed with a soft whoosh with plenty of spray flying everywhere you wouldn't bat an eyelid.
In essence, a wet boat has to have a few round parts in the hull, and round parts are far more forgiving of nature than flat surfaces. That's wot I fink, anyways.
Dave -
I've poked around quite a few and puttered around Alderney on a couple too. Also heard from infatuated owners a lot, and never really heard them complain about too much apart from (1) the waiting list that used to occur for construction, and (2) costs. The costs issue resolves itself fairly easily when you start to nonchalantly fish days that before in a mono-hull you wouldn't have even got out of bed for, and the fact that most of the South Boats do indeed have better fuel economy that a similiar sized mono-hull. The waiting list I know nothing about nowadays, but with the advent of a few of the beasties appearing on the market second-hand that would seem to have eased matters somewhat. I know that the yard may well have finished the double mould by now too, so a whole hull can be done at once instead of each hull individually - that may have helped too, but I'll be honest and say I haven't talked to them for about three years and don't know where they are at.
Porpoising is a trait that many cats exhibit, and it does not affect performance too much but can be disconcerting if you're not used to it or don't like it. It's normally caused by trim problems, as a cat must lie to her lines flat, and any shift in proportional weight distribution can have very severe effects, even on big boats. One common problem is when the fuel tanks are aft of the engines and the stern trim alters as fuel is used or added, or when a group of 16 anglers with a stone of Breakaways each load the back gunwale. Likewise, an inordinately enormous supply of pies and Bento specials to the wheelhouse can do the same :)
However, it can also be caused by the correlative effects of hull speed in relation to engine power, hull length and displacement. I'm no expert, but when all the planets line up in the wrong way you can have a porpoising time on a cat. Normally an adjustment of revs will solve the problem, but skippers can get very blinkered to putting the throttles where they always go and leave them there while they ferret around in little books for numbers or make a sausage sandwich. Of course, I've never, ever, done that. Hmm....
Hopefully some catamaran builder will read this, and correct any bold mistakes I've suggested and denounce me as an uneducated wotsit.
Don't pay any attention to Dustin - he doesn't even know when he's a on a CyFish 'cos he can't see over the gunwales and he doesn't really like them as he thinks he'll fall off them as they're too high out the water. :roll1:
I quite liked the two I had though. :thumbs: I'd buy another one quite happily if circumstances warranted it.
Roddy Hays
29-10-2008, 01:26
Dustin, apologies for talking about US hulls and using your thread as an adjunct to Tom's CV dream. I will desist and put ideas back on the other thread where they belong !
Cruising speeds - hmm, my favourite cruising speed is one where I can still brew a cup of tea. That's my criteria and it's stood me well over the years. If you're spilling stuff and it's too dangerous to play with boiling water than you're going too fast for the conditions. Any boat that allows me to make tea AND cook a bacon sandwich at the same time when doing a decent lick really gets my attention.
Seriously, speed is a very personal thing. I like fuel economy, comfort, an engine at reasonable revs, and no qualms about doing the speed I'm at. In most circumstances on a sub 45' boat, that could occur anywhere between 14 and probably 24 knots or so. I'm happy with an honest 18 knots, but 20 makes everything so much easier to plan.
I honestly have no interest in high speeds, I have seen too much damage done both internally and externally on boats which were flying along, and quite apart from the wear and tear on vessel and mechanicals, the speed at which everything happens leaves you very little time to take evasive action if you need too. Being from the old school, I cannot take my eyes off the water in front of the boat - spent too much time submerged in the bloody freezing Channel clearing props and I'm too old to do it anymore !
Another advantage of a reasonable cruise is you have time to react to gauges, and you can hear things too. I also detest having to hang on for dear life for hours on end - and thats without really talking about the prodding finger pushing the wrong button on the electronics at speed. God I hate that - all you want to do is change the scale on the GPS, for example, and you end up deleting the day's track or the waypoints of the last fish. Grrrr.
It may be a coincidence, but at 20 knots in most boats in reasonable sea conditions I can make my tea. Get the boat over the hump, wind her up a little more till the engine starts to labour, drop back 50 revs and sit down with aforementioned tea.
One of the reasons I LOVED Madeira was that I could troll from just outside the wall, and then troll all the way home. It led to great fuel economy, less wear on the engines, and probably a few more fish too. I simply couldn't afford to run down to Madelena do Mar every day, and then run all the way home again.
But that's just me....
Roddy, from memory I thought the Lara Jade gunwales were actually somewhat on the low side. The cockpit floor was pretty high above the water but the gunwale height wasn't all that. I remember thinking that if the engine could be put in a box, like the Mitchell 31, the cockpit floor could be made lower to the water while still having a good gunwale height and be a little easier to work. What sort of cruising speed was she capable of? I've never seen Joao run at anything faster than trolling speed, except maybe a couple of times when we saw him run for a tuna bust.
How good a European boat is for gamefishing inevitably leads to comparisons with US vessels, the more comparisons between the two the better. I got sidetracked myself in thinking about how marketable a better designed game fishing vessel might be. That's probably another subject that might be better discussed in a thread of its own.
Re the dryness issue I think any smaller vessel ie under 36 foot is doing to be wet when running in rough seas. There is a lot of guff written about the supposed dryness of some American vessels when running but I can well remember that both the Hatteras 43 and Bertram 46 I fished on, although excellent sea boats with a great ride, were also wet. I reckon you're going to have to have clears on your bridge if it's 40 feet or less and you're intend to make frequent runs in even breaking three-footers. I've noticed most European vessels have a lower helm station that the skipper drives from in heavy weather, which is much more enclosed and weather proof than even a flybridge with clears. I notice a lot of American vessels have the front of the house glassed over to prevent windows from caving in if a big wave crashes over the bow, and I always thought it a potential risk but to be fair, have not yet heard of it happening. Maybe we use tougher glass than they do ... You lose the field of vision that you have when driving up top though, and that can sometimes be useful. Any thoughts?
Re the need for speed my thoughts are that it isn't necessary in some places but it's always useful to have. I remember very well that when I started fishing Phuket in a boat that could cruise at 20+ knots it really opened up some new horizons, and I can think of quite a few places in Europe where a decent turn of speed is definitely an advantage. Even in the islands it can be an advantage to get places quickly rather than plodding from say Madeira to the Desertas, or from Horta to one of the more distant banks. Fuel consumption /economy is a big factor though and I would really like some real world consumption figures. It won't matter if the vessel is capable of making 25 knots, or whatever speed in rough seas if doing so is too expensive. Tom, returning again to that Powerglide 40, can you tell us what engines she had in her and what sort of revs were needed to achieve that 21 knot speed?
Thanks again everyone
Patudo
Luis Nabais
29-10-2008, 11:27
Shucks Luis, well it was worth a shot ! :whistling
I assume you're talking about a corporate owner who is thinking of several boats from their portfolio. If that is the case I can think who it might be, well there's not that many contenders really......
You made it very well and not many people could make that shot.
Very well indeed.
We know that since is not American and it is not from Europe...no many more chances, right?
In 2 weeks I can talk about it and say all.
Captain Spike
29-10-2008, 11:58
You made it very well and not many people could make that shot.
Very well indeed.
We know that since is not American and it is not from Europe...no many more chances, right?
In 2 weeks I can talk about it and say all.
I know what it is.........
Luis Nabais
29-10-2008, 12:22
I've noticed most European vessels have a lower helm station that the skipper drives from in heavy weather, which is much more enclosed and weather proof than even a flybridge with clears.
Dustin:
This usually happens because the clients want it this way.
Most of them and with the experience they have, they know that to drive one continental european boat, from the fly, at a cruising speed is, most of the time, a real nightmare and you simply can not be there.
The sensation and impression that the boat is going to break increase when you´re on a fly.
Driving it from a lower station gives them the protection against the weather they think they need and, since they are not so high, the feeling that they are going to have not one boat but several pieces of a boat, is smaller.
Even in rought seas you can usually drive this kind of boats from the fly, at trolling speed but try to be there at something around 16 up knots with 3 or 4 foot sea and you´ll understand what I am saying.
The only way to make this persons to change their mind is to put them in boats with a diferent behave in the sea and, I saw many times their open mouth with the surprise, when in a diferent kind of hull, than the one´s they are used.
About cruising speed I don´t care too much if the boat can not make 30´s or more at cruising.
I also like to watch the water in my front and see what is happening there and what can come.
Offcourse I like a 30 knots cruising boat but the security and the confort comes first and I believe something around 24/26 is a decent speed but, naturally, I can be very happy at 12 knots cruising if I can put the lines out almost out the Marina.
Luis Nabais
29-10-2008, 12:25
I know what it is.........
I know you know but seal your mouth for a while.
The guys in europe didn´t start very well, in my opinion, since the first model they are building is the 40 footer and I believe that the best market is for the smaller models where the cost of the transport makes a big diference in the final price but, they wanted this way so, I am ready to see what they have done and try it.
Likewise, an inordinately enormous supply of pies and Bento specials to the wheelhouse can do the same :)
No cat for me then ! :cry:
The only ones i`ve seen running flat have had small engines like RB`s one, seems to be right that as soon as you stick big lumps in them they start porpoising.
South boats have been concentrating on the Alloy boats, seem to be getting back into GRP , so hopefully the wait times will come down.
Thanks for you reply,
Dave.
TomBettle
29-10-2008, 12:57
Tom, returning again to that Powerglide 40, can you tell us what engines she had in her and what sort of revs were needed to achieve that 21 knot speed?
Thanks again everyone
Patudo
Powerglide 40 which wa actually 43' overall due to some tweaking, overhangs etc.
2 x Iveco 285's.
Top speed 24.5 to 25.5 knots.
21 knots in "almost" all conditions bar a brisk wind on the nose along the Skaggerack in the dark (then 17 knots) and 2150 RPM.
3ltr per mile based on approx fill ups of 950 to 1050 litres every approx 350 to 400nm.
I started the thread to get some feedback on UK/European hulls
Dave,
Glad to see a Cyfish owner here, I have some familiarity with older Cyfish having seen the Lara Jade waltz around connected to large ****ed off blue marlin on more than a few occasions. Please feel free to weigh in on the good and not so good points of your vessel!
Best regards
P.
Mine would probably be the last boat suitable for Big game fishing !
Totally set up for UK angling with a small wheelhouse/huge deck and decent sized single engine, Yanmar 420hp.
She gives what i think is resonable economy, roughly 8 to 9 gallons an hour at inshore cruising speeds 12 to 14 knts, rising to 10/11 gph at 15/17 knts when running to offshore wrecks.
When you consider we normally run with a minimum of 8 passengers/ 2 crew upto 12/2, that`s a fair weight we are lugging about !
Top speed with a light boat is 23 knts, but i`ve only ever seen that once and with current diesel prices probably never will again ! :cry:
Having said all that, i spent 4 months working with her on an offshore wind farm site last year doing Guard boat duties. we had to be on site in some pretty wild weather, upto F9, very few boats at 10 meters long would inspire such confidence, she`ll chug through almost any sea at 10/12 knts and just shrug it off without a creak or murmur.
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r143/excel-bucket/excel.jpg
Dave.
I know what it is.........
So do I :bye1:
Ravelling Tangler
30-10-2008, 17:43
what's all this making your own sausage sandwiches, bacon sarnies and cups of tea, Roddy - don't you have Cappy Say aboard (and putting out the TLDII-30, if you don't keep him busy enough) for just that purpose . . . . when he's not trotting up to the tower with your early afternoon cocktail ?
grin !
Roddy Hays
31-10-2008, 23:16
That bloody TLD30 affair is going to haunt both Cappy Say and I for ever. I'll have you know now that during his tenure on the deck I had enough trouble controlling what went out into the spread, let alone getting the colonial upstart to do galley duty. Besides, further considerations include - Ascension is not the best place to get a cup of tea up a ladder, Olaf had no means of boiling water on the boat, we had no tea-bags on the boat anyway, no eggs (no eggs for the six weeks I was there I think......), and a sausage ???????? Bloody hell, I'd have been able to command any sort of ransom I wanted with one of those. I could have had the entire Volcano club falling at my feet with rose petals with a promise of a English banger....... I suspect I could have gone back first class to the UK in a Hercules if I'd offered the RAF commander a real sausage. God, dreams were made of those, and roast dinners, fresh milk, vegetables, fruit.......unbroken 30lb line....... oops, sorry
TomBettle
01-11-2008, 12:07
...did Roger have problems with his tackle back then too?
Ravelling Tangler
01-11-2008, 16:21
Nice one Tom! No (I write this in the hope that there are no embarassing picture of me from then)
Poor old Roddy - Cappy Say as an angler snuck a "sailfish outfit" out into the spread and while Roddy from the tower was telling them to get it out of the water, what should happen but . . . . well you just know what happened, don't you ? It's part of what makes fishing so exciting and frustrating.
Now if only Jay had put a Braziliano on the end of his line (sorry to mention a competitor's product, sir) Roddy could have been backing down on a very dazed and confused monster , stunned on the surface, while Jay wound in the 30lb line. Or so someone else seems to think !
Hey Roddy,
Sorry for the late reply to this one
Here's a challenge for you - what make is this boat from the US ?
Making a wild guess, might it be a Henriques - it kinda resembles Margarita minus the flybridge?
Regards
Dustin
Roddy Hays
06-11-2008, 22:19
Absolutely correct, Dustin - I thought you'd be the one to get it !
And for those interested, a great head-sea hull at 18 knots, but a tad squirrely in a following sea - you didn't leave it on auto-pilot but then you knew she was going to get you home if you concentrated a little ........ that one bad trait didn't stop us fishing some winter tunas in seas that we shouldn't have ! :)
Luis Nabais
10-11-2008, 17:03
Ok.
Sorry for the delay.
We can talk about the boat now.
The spanish guys didn´t finished it on time for the Barcelona Boat Show but we can open the things.
They are building one DeepV 40.
I believe you know that DeepV is the Australian name in the present for the small Black Watch boats.
I think you all know that this boats, not the 40, the smaller one´s, have been designed by Raymond Hunt and that is probably the reason they get a so good reputation.
Anyway they are very good boats but I don´t know about their behave in the North Atlantic or if they are good for that.
For Portugal and the Mediterranean, for sure a very good fishing boat.
I beleive that the models with bigger sucess here are going to be the 260, the 310 and the 340.
So Mr. N. is this the same designer as the Bertram???
(PS want some rain :cold::cold:)
Luis Nabais
10-11-2008, 19:03
You are correct Mr. M.
The same designer that made the first Bertrams.
Thank´s for the rain.
I don´t want to take from you your privileges.
Keep it all there, please.
One Sword this weekend come out and I hope the "piranhas" had gone for we to go and try them next weekend.
TomBettle
10-11-2008, 19:53
Hi Luis
I was exchanging emails with Simon Hearn (spelling?) from DeepV a couple of months ago. I was interested as a possible middle of the range boat for the UK market (mix of fishing and cruising).
I don't have the experience of the others on here. What's the boat like as I saw the 260 and 310 as much better versions of the equivalents from Jeanneau and Beneteau for not massively more money?
If they are good, I may go back and start talking again.
Is it just the 40 being built in Europe or is the range going to be produced here too????
I am genuinely interested from the perspective of my "day job".
Thanks
Tom
Luis Nabais
10-11-2008, 20:15
Hi Tom:
I spoked with Simon a couple of times but talked more with Trevor.
I am sure the best boats are the small one´s, the 260, 310 and 340 and they are in the plans to be builded here in Europe.
This means the transport cost is going to be very reduced and then the boats are going to have a very good and competitive price.
The guys that are going to build them is Spain are also good and they know what they do but I need to see and check the boats made here to have one opinion but if they are going to do the same quality and the same boat like they are doing in Australia then we are going to have really something good for Big Game near us.
TomBettle
10-11-2008, 20:18
Hi Tom:
I spoked with Simon a couple of times but talked more with Trevor.
I am sure the best boats are the small one´s, the 260, 310 and 340 and they are in the plans to be builded here in Europe.
This means the transport cost is going to be very reduced and then the boats are going to have a very good and competitive price.
The guys that are going to build them is Spain are also good and they know what they do but I need to see and check the boats made here to have one opinion but if they are going to do the same quality and the same boat like they are doing in Australia then we are going to have really something good for Big Game near us.
I'll be very interested not just for Big Game, but also for general cruising Luis.
If they are of the same standard that you suggest then I will be even more interested.
I may be able to do something with you on these if you are interested...
Luis Nabais
11-11-2008, 00:44
Tom:
I have a very good and old friendship with one ex-partner and owner of DeepV but , I don´t know even what to call him, he is retired and enjoying life.
Here I just can call him lucky guy but I call him other names in private...
I know the other 2 owners of DeepV and they are excelent persons.
Just let me know what you need but I believe that, first than all, we have to see what is coming out from Spain.
I know the factory where they are building them and they are serious persons and they know how to work but, like I said before, I want to see if what is coming out has the same performances than the original product.
TomBettle
11-11-2008, 10:50
I agree Luis. I'd need to see the finished product and in the case of something like this, I've never tried it, so I would need to sea trial them to be confident in selling them.
They look smart and sound like the right sort of boat at middle of the line prices. Quite beamy for a "real" deep vee so I would love to see how they handle.
Looking at the dash on the 260, I am right in assuming it is a single sterndrive? Does she handle ok for such a small flybridge convertible or is she a little lively on the beam?
The only difficulty in the UK would be convincing people about the benefits of extra saloon space at the expense of a lower helm. UK boaters are used to a helm at both stations and even with a full enclosure up top the concept is alien to them.
Tom
Luis Nabais
11-11-2008, 11:38
Tom:
The 260 runs very well.
The 280 is the same hull and they are making it also now with a fly bridge and twin engines.
I know what you say about the habits with the control stations and where to drive the boat and I mentioned that in the first moments here but, sure, they need to go there to see how it works.
Roddy Hays
11-11-2008, 13:22
Tom,
None other than Roger Bayzand now in Mooloolaba, AU has a 28. You could do now worse than drop him a line to get a very good AU v UK impression.
I know some of my Oz friends say that 26 is a wee bit squirrely being so high out the water, and some say the boats are wet too, but as a rule they seem to have a great reputation. As Luis says though, it will all depend on how they turn out being built in Spain. I'm not sure they are the most economical hull in the water but they'd probably do a fine job battling offshore out of Portugal, that's for sure !
I'll drop you Roger's email via PM.
TomBettle
11-11-2008, 13:32
Tom,
None other than Roger Bayzand now in Mooloolaba, AU has a 28. You could do now worse than drop him a line to get a very good AU v UK impression.
I know some of my Oz friends say that 26 is a wee bit squirrely being so high out the water, and some say the boats are wet too, but as a rule they seem to have a great reputation. As Luis says though, it will all depend on how they turn out being built in Spain. I'm not sure they are the most economical hull in the water but they'd probably do a fine job battling offshore out of Portugal, that's for sure !
I'll drop you Roger's email via PM.
Thanks Roddy
Got the PM.
The little 28 looks quite smart and seems reasonable value if built fairly well and we can get it for a similar rate built in Europe.
The bigger boats aren't expensive by game boat standards, but will appear fairly sparse (looking at the pics) for the money, compared with typical cruising boats from here.
I know they aren't cruising boats, but the private angling boat market in the UK demands something quite different and the upper end of the regular mass market is about 28 feet. I want a boat that the husband can feel the mutz nutz on, but the wife can also feel she can join him on a cruiser around the channel islands.
If the boat will fit that criteria then the 260 or 28 may well be just right.
The bigger boats I am not sure about as they aren't quite luxurious enough, but with a price tag akin to the smaller gin palaces.
...all this is just me thinking out loud. I really do need to see the range, but a quick email chat with Roger Bayzand may be useful.
Tom
Roddy Hays
11-11-2008, 14:40
Well, another idea to throw at you might be for you to ask Henriques if they've ever thought of putting a long cabin, with no fly-bridge, on their 28. They did several of that ilk in different sizes and they are very amenable to things like that. For a while, for example, they did quite a few stern cabin trawlers on the 35 Maine Coaster hull and I've seen more than one sedan version.
The 28 is a decent hull, a good sea-boat and would make a great cruiser. Relatively economical as it is easily driven and relatively well-priced. I never did like the liner cockpit in that particular boat for serious wiring purposes, but people could get around that with a toe-rail or similiar.
Did you look at that Delta 28 yet ?
Oh, I'm not sure you know, but Barry Philpott has put his 695 Cat in the water at long last too. I'm not sure if it would suit your purpose but it might interest you for other reasons........ :)
http://www.powercats.co.uk/news_and_events/images/695atSeawork2008web.jpg
TomBettle
11-11-2008, 14:46
Roddy
Are you hiding behind my sofa at home or something?
I've been chatting to Barry since the Southampton Boat Show.
I was really impressed with this, the first properly finished (still some teething issues) 695.
Think it was a couple Mercury 90's bolted to the back. Some drive / ballast issues to sort out so couldn't have a play on that one. Very nice, simple and clean finish inside and priced akin (slightly dearer) than the equivalent European monohull pilothouse.
Had a little play in his baby 525 too. That little thing is awesome. Full chat over the redjet wash and it barely rumbled. Dry as a bone too.
If the 695 is anything like as good, it will knock spots off a 30 foot mono hull.
Only last night I was thinking I needed another chat with him about a centre console / WA version of the 695 and also an 11m version....
I've been talking to him about selling them too.... So it could kind of roll everything into one.
Have a big 11m as the main boat, four or five 695's (maybe with a different configuration and inboard if poss please Barry) and a baby 525 as a runaround....
Cheaper than the other options I've been looking at too.
Tom
God I am confused!
Roddy Hays
11-11-2008, 15:43
Are you hiding behind my sofa at home or something?
For a small fee I will restrain from posting the photos of your endeavours from last Saturday night after you and Mrs Bettle re-enacted the ice-cream scene from Carry on up the Jungle.
You might also want to look behind the starboard cushion. If you've lost a hamster over the past year or so I know where the remains are.
Did you never read my review (http://fishing.co.uk/article.php3?id=662) of the 525 ?
TomBettle
11-11-2008, 16:26
Are you hiding behind my sofa at home or something?
For a small fee I will restrain from posting the photos of your endeavours from last Saturday night after you and Mrs Bettle re-enacted the ice-cream scene from Carry on up the Jungle.
You might also want to look behind the starboard cushion. If you've lost a hamster over the past year or so I know where the remains are.
Did you never read my review (http://fishing.co.uk/article.php3?id=662) of the 525 ?
Arrrrm but what flavour was the ice cream? :mellow:
Never seen the review, but it read much as my own experience.
I first took notice of the cat at SBS in 2007. Didn't like it one little bit and didn't pay it a second thought. Her square looks didn't instantly endeer themselves to me and, like you, I thought her freeboard at the bow would be a big issue....
This year I wandered across the pontoon from my Jeanneaus for a closer look. I stood on the gunnell with all my 15 stone of delicatness and the little 17 footer moved maybe two or three inches.
OK, I was now taking notice.
I couldn't help myself taking more and more people over to see her. All my mates, other anglers, even possible drop outs from my Jeanneau sales pitch were marched across to see this slightly mad, but brilliant little boat.
Can't remember what engines she had on the back, I am assuming 25's, but with a handheld GPS she achieved 27.25 knots in one direction up towards Calshot and 26.25 in the other. She only needed a little bit of trim to get the best from her. Hardly any complaints through the short wash created by the boat traffic and only the odd flat turns to get used to when you pushed her hard.
Oddly, I got the impression her hull was on the limits of speed at about 27 knots... not that that was an issue, she'd cruise through almost anything at 20 which is more than enough for any UK angling / cruising situation.
The layout of the boat he had on display was almost launch like. Sort of a picnic boat or family day boat. Not a great layout for angling, although she had tonnes of deckspace. Barry does have a cuddy version to compete alongside the Warriors of this world, but I'd say the cuddy still needs work... it's not a pretty boat, albeit immensley good at what it does. Barry does need to work on the price though.
The launch was coming out at £27K RRP which is very pricey compared to the European, but he does claim it' pitched against a Boston Whaler. I can't see it somehow. It's a far better boat than the Whaler equivalent, but the Whaler only sells on a reputation stemming from the 80's.
I was going to say, Barry needs to lose £10K off the price, but considering it has twin engines.... maybe only £5K or £6K.
I think they are great and need just a few tweaks to make them exactly what I'd love to try and sell. They could even work for other plans I have once those tweaks are sorted out....
Roddy Hays
11-11-2008, 16:38
Arrrrm but what flavour was the ice cream?
Dunno, but you wuz making it go EVERYWHERRREEEEE.
TomBettle
11-11-2008, 16:48
Arrrrm but what flavour was the ice cream?
Dunno, but you wuz making it go EVERYWHERRREEEEE.
Two things:
:icecream:That wasn't ice cream
And, that wasn't a hamster:yucky:
Roddy Hays
11-11-2008, 19:46
It must have been ice-cream - it didn't go that far......
and I think you're right, it wasn't a hamster. I think it was a pop-up tart with decay growth.
_____________________________________
Enough of the joviality.
The 525 is a very good product, far better in some respects than some of the US same-size cats of that size. I liked the "Brit" solidity of it compared to the flimsy liner stuff you see on some boats, and I still remember to this day just how gob-smacked I was at the quality of the ride - not for a cat, but for a cat of THAT size, or for ANY Boat of that size. Indeed, if I was in the market for a boat of that length I wouldn't hesitate to give Barry a call. The economy and safety of the vessel makes it a steal, and truly reflects the entire generic process that he has gone through with his cats over the past 20 odd years - they are a finished product with severe testing and hands-on experience in their background, which is far more than can be said of many of the cats in the US market, some of which seem to have sprung from discussions over cocktails around a tikki-bar.
I haven't seen the 695, but I hope it really is the beast it should be. With a couple of 4-strokes on the back I suspect they could well be a real winner for them, a complete and utter contrast to the large Orkneys and other coastal pilothouse cruisers around. For a boat that goes from A to B, a cat is hard to beat - in that size range its real only downside is that bang into a head sea at trolling speed - easily rectified by a careful helmsman, but a good way to put off customers if you get it wrong.
Incidentally, a lot of those size cats in South Africa regularly catch huge fish, with 130 tackle and a chair in the cockpit. As they are easily manoeuvrable and as 4-stroke motors can back up without preamble (compared to 2-strokes) they lend themselves well to heavy tackle big-game, and whilst they might not be the right craft for a choppy Algrave, there is no doubt they would do very well in the calm of Funchal or La Gomera. That's if you want the pilot-house of course - which you might want in hot climates. If you go the centre-console route the world is your oyster.
Now all we have to do is persuade Barry to make a roto mould to bake a plastic one in and we're laughing.
PS: disregard the La Gomera insert. I meant Playa las Americas, or Porto Colon, of course. Anywhere on the other islands is better. LG is a poxy place. Unsafe, poorly lit, no fish, no facilities ashore and very little in the way of restaurants or hotels. Indeed, most times I have fished there it's been extremely rough and I've had to sleep in the litter bins alongside the ferry terminals. Not good at all. Look elsewhere.
Luis Nabais
11-11-2008, 21:09
The 260 and the 280 are made with the same mould just changing the out of the water parts but the living parts are exactly the same.
The 310 is also a very good boat as well as the 340.
The one I know less is the 40 but I hear a lot of good things about the boat.
Like I said, let´s wait to see what´s coming out from Spain.
Actually they have a nice price but the transport cost is going to ruin something that can be done in the small boats since it is going to represent a big part of the final price of the boat.
If they are going to be the same, build in Spain than in Australia, we can have a nice offshore fishing boat made in Europe.
We just need to wait a few months more.
A very good friend of mine used to run a BW34 and I know a couple of others that have run/owned BW34s and 30s, although have not discussed them in detail. They seem to be exceptional fish fighting boats and decent sea boats. The 26 does look a little high with that flybridge on it. I'm not really sure the flybridge concept really works until you get to at least 28 feet and preferably a bit bigger. An express 26 however, preferably with a single shaft drive diesel would be very very interesting.
---------------------------
Roddy - just re-read your review of the 525. Thanks for going over it in detail - might visit Southampton next year now I know a few more folks in the industry
cheers - dustin
Roddy Hays
12-11-2008, 07:57
just re-read your review of the 525.......... might visit Southampton next year now I know a few more folks in the industry
I can see it now, a pale "fighting yellow" 525 puttering along outside Ponta do Garajou, a small diminutive figure alternating like a hamster on a spinning wheel between the tiny cockpit and the precarious flybridge (little more than a dustbin-lid welded on an extending ladder from B&Q), as he flings huge lumps of resin into the space between the small 9.9 Yamahas. On one side a 130 is carefully cradled all day by a muttering Roger Bradbury, his white legs scarlet as they extend too far out from beneath the dodger in front of the console, the 130 long enough to extend past the console as an outrigger might do. The other 130 outfit is on the other side, it's bent-butt solidly run into the massive hawser-like rod-holder that Capt Dustin has welded to the stout railing. Indeed as we go nearer, an Extreme Breakfast is run out into the wake and the scurrying captain runs to the controls and coaxes another 150 revs out of the whining port motor to counter-act the drag of the huge lure. Laugh not, this is a mean lean fighting machine, capable of running down Madeira's mighty blues quicker than any other boat. Indeed, some captures have entailed no winding of the reel, just the paw of Bradbury's hand ensconced firmly in Capt Dustin's belt as the fearless captain leans out the side of the boat at 23 knots and takes a wrap on the flying leader.
The good news is that in two months of fishing, the pair have used only 16.3 litres of fuel and two AA batteries in the Garmin handheld GPS. The bad news remains both the small amount of space left on board each day by the time Bradbury has put his bag down amongst the 5 dozen lures Dustin has laid out, and the sole occasion Dustin missed his wraps and the couple were towed to Lanzarote by a 1200lb fish - they had no passports and Aram was unable to release them from incarceration before Roger led a daring jail escape after blowing a hole in the wall with a fire-cracker and they fled back to Madeira in the night, the little Garmin winking like a firefly on the vast dark ocean, fifteen salubrious fellow prisoners tucked into the pocket fighting machine (which thankfully the Spanish police had conveniently left in the fountain for the night).
Some may feel the boat is too small, but Dustin shrugs at the question, and merely points out how convenient it is to have a boat small enough to take as hand baggage aboard the weekly TAP flight.
Exciting times indeed. Clerkenwell in winter will be a dull place after this.......
Roddy Hays
12-11-2008, 09:41
In all seriousness, a small cat with a chair in the bow would actually make an ideal small boat for both Madeira and La Gomera - sorry, Playa de Americas.
I remember when Glacier Bay ran out their first 22, no less a person than Peter B Wright was tinkering with the idea of taking a 22 to Madeira with a chair in the bow. In the hands of a thinking captain, experienced enough to cope with the constraints of large fish alongside a small boat, it could prove to be successful. Three teasers, or two, electric reels, a pitch bait from a cooler and a decent wire-man - I could see it working and have toyed with the idea too. Your real downfall would be the lack of shade and comforts, but if you're prepared to go ashore for lunch (now easy to do at Calheta, for example) and treat the whole deal as an experience in itself, it could be great fun. You'd have to be flexible and make sure every opportunity to escape the monotony of a small boat was taken - swimming with whales, snorkelling, the odd wahoo troll, turtle-tagging, a BBQ ashore on a small beach, all those sort of things.
I've talked to Dustin about this before, and to be truthful there are a variety of small boats that could be used in these two locations for this purpose, as Caspar de Groot illustrated with his tiny Boston Whaler, but a craft with slightly with more substantial comforts and a head (which the GB 22 had) would make life that little bit more comfortable. The fuel burn would be economical and a cat with enough beam to put a chair in the bow would be the way to go. I'd agree with an experienced angler that stand-up tackle could be used, but in truth you really do need a 130 or 80 lb outfit and a chair for the beasts down there. You might be fine for 9 of them, but the tenth will prove a bull and 40lbs of drag is easier to exert for three hours in the chair than standing up.
We did a fair bit of trolling in Anguilla with Gecko, a similar GB 22, and I remember thinking then it could be made to work - a single client and a wireman. All you need to do is alter the bowrail, like we did, and it starts to make sense. The one in the pic is too high for a chair rod but if it was lower you'd be in the game.
http://glacierbayowners.com/gallery/photos/05/507.jpg
I'm not sure if the 525 offers the same amount of space to do something with, but it would be fun to have a look. You'd be able to take it to Porto Santo at the weekend on the ferry too, if Funchal was dead !
Of course, the 695 in a centre console version could prove to be a very capable pocket battleship too !
TomBettle
12-11-2008, 11:29
just re-read your review of the 525.......... might visit Southampton next year now I know a few more folks in the industry
I can see it now, a pale "fighting yellow" 525 puttering along outside Ponta do Garajou, a small diminutive figure alternating like a hamster on a spinning wheel between the tiny cockpit and the precarious flybridge (little more than a dustbin-lid welded on an extending ladder from B&Q), as he flings huge lumps of resin into the space between the small 9.9 Yamahas. On one side a 130 is carefully cradled all day by a muttering Roger Bradbury, his white legs scarlet as they extend too far out from beneath the dodger in front of the console, the 130 long enough to extend past the console as an outrigger might do. The other 130 outfit is on the other side, it's bent-butt solidly run into the massive hawser-like rod-holder that Capt Dustin has welded to the stout railing. Indeed as we go nearer, an Extreme Breakfast is run out into the wake and the scurrying captain runs to the controls and coaxes another 150 revs out of the whining port motor to counter-act the drag of the huge lure. Laugh not, this is a mean lean fighting machine, capable of running down Madeira's mighty blues quicker than any other boat. Indeed, some captures have entailed no winding of the reel, just the paw of Bradbury's hand ensconced firmly in Capt Dustin's belt as the fearless captain leans out the side of the boat at 23 knots and takes a wrap on the flying leader.
The good news is that in two months of fishing, the pair have used only 16.3 litres of fuel and two AA batteries in the Garmin handheld GPS. The bad news remains both the small amount of space left on board each day by the time Bradbury has put his bag down amongst the 5 dozen lures Dustin has laid out, and the sole occasion Dustin missed his wraps and the couple were towed to Lanzarote by a 1200lb fish - they had no passports and Aram was unable to release them from incarceration before Roger led a daring jail escape after blowing a hole in the wall with a fire-cracker and they fled back to Madeira in the night, the little Garmin winking like a firefly on the vast dark ocean, fifteen salubrious fellow prisoners tucked into the pocket fighting machine (which thankfully the Spanish police had conveniently left in the fountain for the night).
Some may feel the boat is too small, but Dustin shrugs at the question, and merely points out how convenient it is to have a boat small enough to take as hand baggage aboard the weekly TAP flight.
Exciting times indeed. Clerkenwell in winter will be a dull place after this.......
:roll1::roll1::roll1:
This genuinely has to be one of the best and funniest posts on WSF for a very long time.
Well done Roddy :roll1:
I came in feeling a little rough from too much Vino Tinto last night and all thoughts of that have gone as I try and wipe the tears from my face whilst sat in a busy office pretending I am working.
Brilliant
Tom
PS: Had a very decent reply from Roger who appears to be having a lovely retirement and has asked me to pass on his regards.
If he say's it's OK, I'll post his review of his Deep Vee as it is good reading.
Ravelling Tangler
12-11-2008, 13:24
It must have been ice-cream - it didn't go that far......
and I think you're right, it wasn't a hamster. I think it was a pop-up tart with decay growth.
_____________________________________
Enough of the joviality.
blah-blah, yada-yada.
so there we have it: Tom is neither "bananaman" nor russel Brand, but is some sort of a medium, learning to "channel" the spirit of the still-living Roddy Hays.
However, I predict that Mr Hays is risking mental health if he sees too much !
hang on: if Roddy is some sort of a God (as some say) - or a Leg-End, as we all know - does that make Tom a high priest ?
TomBettle
12-11-2008, 14:02
hang on: if Roddy is some sort of a God (as some say) - or a Leg-End, as we all know - does that make Tom a high priest ?
Don't know about a high priest, more the "trainee" one that's in Father Ted.....
Roddy Hays
12-11-2008, 16:48
Oh dear, didn't mean to offend you Roger - or Dustin. I just couldn't put the image of a wee boat puttering around. You had to be the stooge with the rod, sorry !
And as for being a God - deary me, you must have misheard all those people. What they were really saying was, "OH GOD ! It's that fella Hays again !"
I'm pleased you've agreed to the "still-living" status though. That has cheered me up no end, though I'm feeling slightly queasy at the thought that I may have misunderstood the Bettle's antics the other night, and they were in fact playing out their respective roles in Come, Dancing.
_____________________________
It'll be interesting to see what Roger Bayzand has to say. He's been running that boat of his for a few months now, so I'd say his insight will be interesting, to say the least. Curiously, it was he who bought Gecko when we left Anguilla, and she's still in the Caribbean somewhere I think.
_____________________________
I think there's a punctuation mistake somewhere in this post, but I'm bugga'd if I can find it.......:roll1:
TomBettle
12-11-2008, 18:10
I came, across it straight away.
TomBettle
13-11-2008, 10:25
I have a feeling that Roger may be along sometime soon to say hello and give his input on the Deep Vee.
In the mean time, here's his comment via email about his own boat.
He did comment some more about Roddy, but it's not printable on a public forum.
Tom
******
Hi Tom,
It is good to hear from you, I remember your trip to Alderney and thought about your trip back to the mainland, I expect it was a good boat test.
We are very happily retired and are now in an area of South East Queensland, Australia, called the Sunshine Coast, the name says it all!
I bought my 28 just over a year ago, it was 4 years old with only 400 hours running and had been mainly used as a family cruiser in Sydney harbour. I have added another 300 engine hours which has given me the chance to evaluate it's performance in a variety of sea states. The worse conditions I had was a 70 NM run from Frazer Island to Mooloolaba into a head sea with winds up to 33 knots, I must admit that I did reduce speed to 7 knots at times but took the opportunity to run some lures and hooked a couple of good Wahoo. The boat has behaved very well and is a good sea boat, it does not have any nasty vices and is particularly comfortable into a head sea.
The finish on mine is pretty good everything is well fitted with a nice amount of interior teak trim. My only complaint is the lack of access to some areas behind the paneling as there does not seem to be any way of removing them without damage, I guess this could be a common complaint with production boats. I fitted out my last two boats, a 34 foot Starfish mono hull and the 32 foot Southcat and made sure that everything was accessible particularly things like behind headlinings so you can run cables etc.
I chose the Deep V over a cat because I did not like the cats on offer here, they all have a pretty shallow v planing hulls and tend to pound too much for my poor old back. My boat is more like a gentleman's cruiser with all the nice additions like a proper galley, fridge, head and shower and two bunks. I would say that there would be a European market for them.
I would be interested to hear more of your Cape Verde venture, it is a place that interested me but was a little to remote from good shopping for my wife, thankfully she is spoilt where were are!
All the best and give my regards to Roddy, John and Dave,
Roger
Ravelling Tangler
13-11-2008, 13:27
I had a week on Gecko (with Max Choisy, p.p. Roger...can't remember the spelling of Max's surname) while she was still in Anguilla. She's on another island now and has new outboards; I wonder if it is still Roger Bayzand owning her ?
Roddy Hays
13-11-2008, 13:36
Roger, I think Capt Bayzand sold his share to John Loftus and Chris Cole, but have no idea what the situation is now, though last I heard she was in Grenada, I think ! You also spelt Max's name right too ! he's still around, I heard from him recently and he's thinking of moving to
Tim, looks like Roger has a pretty good handle on the vessel for you - pretty much what I expected him to say, though I do concur with his opinion of Oz cats. They do not bear any relation whatsoever to Glacier Bay, for example. I know GB have started to appear in some numbers in Oz, and from the five hulls I have been involved with I wouldn't hesitate to choose one of them over any of the Oz cats for their waters - not saying the local cats are badly built or anything, I'm just talking from the comfort-in-a-bad-sea point of view.
Roddy Hays
13-11-2008, 13:38
Roger, I think Capt Bayzand sold his share to John Loftus and Chris Cole, but have no idea what the situation is now, though last I heard she was in Grenada, I think ! You also spelt Max's name right too ! He's still around, I heard from him recently and he's thinking of moving to St Kitts I believe.
Tim, looks like Roger has a pretty good handle on the vessel for you - it's pretty much what I expected him to say about the Deep-V, though I do concur with his opinion of Oz cats. They do not bear any relation whatsoever to Glacier Bay, for example. I know GB have started to appear in some numbers in Oz, and from the five hulls I have been involved with I wouldn't hesitate to choose one of them over any of the Oz cats for their waters - not saying the local cats are badly built or anything, I'm just talking from the comfort-in-a-bad-sea point of view. I've been on a number of Oz carts and they all run quite flat, much like the Kevlacat and World Cat. Fast, but thuddy in a head sea.
Roger Bayzand
15-11-2008, 05:43
Having finally given up battling with the English Channel it was time to seek a new vessel for my own pleasure. I did consider shipping the South Cat to Australia but quashed that idea, for one thing the running cost would have tempted me to resume chartering, not a smart move!
As Roddy mentioned I had a share in his old Glacier Bay 22, initially it was based in Anguilla but 3 years ago we steamed it 400 miles South to Grenada. That trip reaffirmed what a wonderful sea boat the Glacier Bay is and how you can fool yourself into thinking that you are on something much larger. Although we did not come unstuck there were a couple of moments when I was thinking to myself "This is probably more sea that we should be in." The 26 is quite a lot more boat and was my first choice for Australia, unfortunatly they have only been importing GB's for a short time and they are EXPENSIVE, around $A225,000.
The local cats do not impress me as much, my back will no longer take the pounding (too many hours in the RNLI Ribs), so a comfortable monohull was the go. There are plenty of small Bertrams on the market but having a spell with Frothy's 31 and his brothers 28 in Tobago, I discounted them as being very wet. The Blackwatch/Deep Vee range caught my eye as the bow is quite a bit higher and less likely to throw so much water about. The all the 26's I saw were fitted with outdrive legs, and engine boxes intruding into the deck space. I then spotted a 28 with an inboard 230 hp Yanmar diesel, shaft driven with the engine under the deck, the little beauty had only 400 hours on the clock and had spent its 4 year life being very pampered and cruising round Sydney Harbour. It was loaded with all kinds of extras like bowthuster, riggers, rodrests, livebait tank, teak deck even hot water.
After year of fishing I am still very happy and although I have kept my eyes open, I still have not found anything to better it. The Yanmar pushes it along at a comfortable 16 knots cruise and is economical enough not to break the bank, even at today's inflated fuel prices. I deliberately chose the express over a flybridge as I am often single handed and it is only a couple of steps from helm to rod, it is definitely a trade off between ease of access and better visibility. The downfall of the express is the fixed screen is too low and when the clears are down you can still get spray coming in on a lumpy day, still it keeps you cool.
All the best, Rog
Ravelling Tangler
15-11-2008, 16:13
nice post ! Had anything emptying your Avet, recently ?
Just asking.....
Roger Bayzand
16-11-2008, 07:56
The Avet is gathering dust at the moment as I have a crook wrist, it's an old injury that keeps coming back to bite me but hopefully we should be good to go in a week or two.
Lots of fun with the snapper this winter, they shoal around the inshore reefs in the cooler months and soft plastics on light jigheads have taken over from bait fishing. Fished using 6 to 10 lb braid on a light spinning outfit snapper love to take them on the drop, the secret is to fish as light as possible. The amberjack and yellow tail kings gave the Avet a good workout and I am pleased to report it's still in good nick.
The pelagic season is just starting as we move towards summer, water temp is up to 25C and the first few sails and small black marlin have made a showing. Last summer was poor compared with previous years, lots of wind and rain, this year looks like it might be an improvement.
All the best, Rog
Roger Bayzand
16-11-2008, 08:18
Attached (hopefully) are some pictures of the Blackwatch 28 Express
Roddy Hays
16-11-2008, 13:31
WOW ! Nice boat, Dodge. Wish you'd had the damn thing in Mooloolaba when I passed through !
Now we have you under our control, tell us your thoughts on UK hulls ! That's what we'd really like to hear......would you put a flybridge on a South Boat ? If so, which configuration ? Would it work as a game-boat ?
What did you have in yours for power, by the way ? Blue M215C Perkins, weren't they ? What were they like for burning juice ? I know you told me but I'm bugga'd if I can remember,,......
Hope Heather is enjoying the wahoo compared to the dogfish I remember a recipe for which she once penned ! :)
PS: how much not to tell the Lymington crew you have a boat with a bow-thruster ? :roll1:
Roger Bayzand
17-11-2008, 01:39
Good morning Roddy, how is sunny Bulgaria?
Yes the little BW suits me well as an impoverished pensioner.
Would I put a flying bridge on a Southcat? Yes, it's been done several times I think. I don't know if Tony Allen ever got his built but he was designing a game boat lay out for Florida.
There is loads of space on top a of standard wheelhouse and it is plenty strong enough to take a fair bit of weight, one thing is for sure you won't alter the stability much. The configuration depends on where you are and what you want, in theory you could get the full crew seated and have room for a samba.
Consumption figures for the 215 C's based on my usual 90 mile trip around the mid Channel wrecks at cruise speed ( 16.5 knots @ 2100 ) was 3.1 to 3.3 ltrs per mile. This depended more on state growth on the bum rather than load, you can pile on the weight without slowing it down, unlike most monohulls.
As a game boat it suffers like most cats when driven slowly into a 25 knot short head sea, you are bound to get a few thumps although it does not sneeze. The answer, as you know but for the benefit of other readers, is to tack so that one hull lifts before the other or speed up. This may not be a problem in bigger seas. Alderney was a good proving ground, I felt far more confident in the cat compared with the Starfish which could get decidedly squirrely in a big following sea.
Having come from a twin engine cat that could turn in it's own length I fully appreciate a bowthruster and will hear nothing against them.
Wahoo on the barby, snapper on the grill, prawns with garlic butter, life's good in the lucky country.
All the best, Rog
Roddy Hays
17-11-2008, 10:09
Evening Roger,
Bulgaria's a bit chilly right now, but Brunei's just fine. Caught a sailfish out the kitchen window just now. Stupid boy.
South Boat - what was your fuel burn at a slow trot, 8 knots for example ? Any different from a cruise speed, or was it a typical catamaran case of you burnt fuel at a parallel rate to speed - ie: you still got the same mileage to the burn ?
Last I heard Tony was building a Powerglide, not a South Boat, and I've e-mailed him recently to find out what happened without reply. I thought he would have had it up and running by now.....hope nothing has happened. Maybe Tom knows more.......
Alderney a good proving ground - classic understatement of the year. I remember what Ron Cowling said to me about the Race one winter. He drew a comparison with Cape Horn on a bad day and said at least he didn't have to fish the damn Horn ! All I know Alderney's waters taught me an awful lot, that's for sure (not the least of which was that a decent length of string to keep a boat alongside was much better than a wee widdly one).
Glad the BW/DV is keeping you busy. If you need any goodies let me know. Peter Matthews has a garage full of them - must sort that out. Not looking for a sideline, are you ? Could do with a dealer in Oz.
Hope the rain hasn't overfilled the pool. :whistling
TomBettle
17-11-2008, 12:48
Hi Roger
Welcome to WSF.
Thanks for your comments on your BW. Interesting stuff.
Tony Allen.
I was in regular email correspondence with Tony, but haven't heard from him since the Summer.
When I commissioned Troms Explorer (I didn't. I helped manage the build), Tony's Powerglide was at Rod Bakers yard. Hull done, Topsides moulded, engines in crates beside it. The boat was a shell, but Rod assured me it would be done by January (This was October '07). From what I could tell, the boat was already two years late.
I kept on top of Rod and we eventually got Troms Explorer just 6 weeks late in mid June. Outside she looked striking (certainly turned heads) even if she wasn't what you could call pretty. Inside she was a definite statement for getting a local shipwright to me like Pete Russell to finish her off rather than Rod and a hacksaw.
Anyway, the point was, Tony's boat was still sat there in the same corner, gathering dust. With Tony in Florida, nothing was happening on his boat and my correspondence was with a view to helping him get it completed.
As far as I know, it's still in Rod's yard.
I suggested to Tony, to get her launched and towed round to Poole where I could get a crew to complete her in two or three months.... Haven't heard back.
As for the Powerglide.
We bunged a couple of Iveco 285's in Troms Explorer and she was incredibly economical at 3lt / nm at 21 knots in almost any sea. Rod claimed she'd do 30knots. No chance, 25 was pushing it to the absolute limits, but she didn't need more with her cruising speed.
Her downside was she was very very lively in a following sea. Lock to lock on the wheel once you had learned to predict when she was going to loose it. Once you learned to feel what she was going to do she was great, but it made for a nervous ride if you grabbed the wheel for the first time in a big sea up the chuff.
Roddy Hays
17-11-2008, 16:54
Tom,
Can you post a few more pics of Troms Explorer ? There's not much to see on the website and I'd love to see how you all finished her out.
Have you also got a pic of her across the beam or even out the water from that angle ? I'm incredibly curious as to why a cat that size should be so squirrely in a stern sea - doesn't make any sense to me from a design point, I'm wondering whether there's a weight issue....... very strange........ what are your thoughts on it ?
TomBettle
17-11-2008, 17:37
I'll shrink some pics and post them Roddy.
My, non boat designer, view is that she needed about a tonne of extra weight aft.
Her bows were like knife edges and as such had next to zero buoyancy.
It was these knife edges that provided such awesome economy as she simply slipped through the water rather than even attempting to push over it.
If you could sink the back end by another 6 inches or so I truly believe that most of the issues would be fixed.
The other down side was that she always threw up a very fine mist of spray which caked everything in thick layers of salt.
Let me see if I can find some pics for you...
TomBettle
17-11-2008, 18:03
LOA: 43'
Beam: Can't remember! 16'6"?
Wave Piercing, Displacement Hulls. The downside was was the bows acted as rudders.
2 x Iveco 285's
Very large accommodation block designed to allow crew and anglers several days away at a time.
Asymetrical design to starboard leaving a hugely wide port side deck. The concept behind this was that 100% of her fishing would be on the drift and everyone could comfortably fish down one side.
Small Cockpit area more for sheltering etc than for actually fishing from.
Step into a wet room for clothes storage etc with 2 x full heads and showers to port. Move on forwards into the main saloon and wheelhouse.
Full galley to port with four burner electric hob, electric oven and grill and decent sink. To starboard is an aft facing single bunk with a pull out to make a double.
Move forwards and there is a big 4 person dinette to port which would convert to a very good sized double and an +/-8 person dinette to starboard that converted to a vast bunk area that would sleep 4+.
Forwards again and a small L shaped seating area to port with a double helm seat to starboard.
Underneath the dash on both sides was "cosy" crawl in crew accomodation (1.5 persons each side).
My bolt hole for our trip to Tromsoe was in the port one and even in the heaviest sea it was very comfy in there. The one and only time it was an issue was coming around onto the German Bight we hit some huge standing waves that caught us out. I ended up being dumped, sleeping bag and all, about half way down the companionway, only to look up and see the next one completely green (brown actually) coming right over the top, taking a windscreen wiper with it. All good fun.
The idea worked really well, the fit out was less than acceptable with some of the cushions not being there, others not fitting and it being very rough around the edges.
I think Holger (co-owner) will be spending the Winter doing a lot of work smartening her up.
In future I'd get the hull and topsides built by Rod and then the boat finished here....
Roddy Hays
17-11-2008, 18:15
Where were the fuel tanks, Tom ?
Thanx for the pix, too ! Very revealing. I fink ure non-deziner vuuw is fine....... :boat: In fact, 2nd pic from left gives us heap big clue.
head
nail
the
hit
on
you've
Re-arrange to give idea. :)
Ravelling Tangler
17-11-2008, 18:22
That's a very spacious cabin for a load of smelly (smelling of Cod & Halibut, we hope) anglers !
TomBettle
17-11-2008, 20:32
Where were the fuel tanks, Tom ?
Thanx for the pix, too ! Very revealing. I fink ure non-deziner vuuw is fine....... :boat: In fact, 2nd pic from left gives us heap big clue.
head
nail
the
hit
Re-arrange to give idea. :)
All way aft of centre Roddy. Black water and Fresh Water too.
If you look at the pic of her alongside in Tromsoe, you can see the sprayrail just poking above the waterline.
My guess is this could do with being another few inchs above the waterline without necessarily having a full tank of juice.
TomBettle
17-11-2008, 20:35
....oh and yes, in the last picture that really is a pair of Holgers skanky Boxer Shorts hanging up....
Thanks for the photos of that Powerglide Tom, and Roger, thanks so much for weighing in - very much appreciate your insights.
Re that Powerglide, Tom - looking at it I think she's definitely high enough off the water to make handling billfish pretty difficult, but with being such an economical vessel would be great for running off to those oil rigs in the Gulf of Mexico with a big bunch of anglers fishing jigs and bait for tuna, amberjacks, snapper etc. Don't the Yanks have anything like this though? Roddy? I like the idea of the asymmetrical deckhouse too, and for the fishery they have in the Gulf it could easily be made into a walk around so that the anglers could follow tuna all the way around the boat, long range style. The combination of fishing space, stability and fuel economy (I can't think of any 40 foot monohulls with comparable power that would match those figures - Roddy, your thoughts?) is really hard to beat for certain fishing jobs.
TomBettle
17-11-2008, 21:22
Dustin
A full WA is the standard "Off the shelf" accommodation from Rod.
Normally the wheelhouse is about half the length to give the typical UK charter boat look.
We wanted (at the expense of looks) huge inside space and a very large single side deck.
To be honest, if we could have had the same long wheelhouse, but positioned centrally with, maybe, 2'6" side decks it would have given the best of both worlds and possible been slightly better balanced. The downside to this, with the long wheelhouse, it would have impeded on engine room access which at the moment is awesome.
For me, a full WA with a flybridge would be the way forward, but with the Powerglide, the trim issues need sorting first.
In the first external pic, if you look immediately aft of the fender, the little cut out shows where the side opening door is. That cut out marks deck level.
There is no reason at all why the deck cannot be hugely lower to the water and the gunnel remoulded accordingly. I feel sure that Rod would be able to create a boat with much more suitable freeboard aft.
...I'd probably then go on to extending the foredeck aft about another half metre to a metre, thus giving some much needed cabin space (albeit still not full height) were the crew quarters are now. This would also serve the purpose of moving a lot of fixed weight further aft and maybe, just maybe, help sort some of the trim issues out.
Holger - 70 degrees North
17-11-2008, 22:54
Hi Tom,
All the best for my old crew member on the trip from the UK to Norway. The boxer shorts on the picture is the pair you want as a souvenir.
I'm looking forward to see you in Norway in 2009.
Regards
Holger
Roddy Hays
18-11-2008, 00:09
That's a very spacious cabin for a load of smelly (smelling of Cod & Halibut, we hope) anglers !
After what Holger has had to say, I suspect we'd best just hope for the fishy bit, Roger. Going to far down that narrow little road of description may well lead us into a Scandinavian netherworld of intrigue and paper-bags by the sound of it........ not good.
_____________________________
Tom, I can't agree with you about the bows acting as rudders. The Glacier Bays have bows far finer than those of the PowerGlide and I have never had the slightest qualm going downsea in any of their boats, although admittedly I have not been to sea on the 30, which by all accounts is probably the worst seaboat in their range (and by worst, it's probably still better by a factor of about 3 trillion compared to a monohull of the same length :)).
As a matter of fact, the 22 Gecko which Roger bought indisputably saved my life once when I was caught out in St Marteen and had to return to Anguilla at short notice as a storm blew up. I should have taken more note of the ferries returning to harbour as I left, but I felt 30 knots on the nose wasn't a problem. It wasn't. It was the 50 odd knots I had on the beam after I'd gone through the gap between Little Anguilla and the big island and was committed to the run to Sandy Ground that became the problem. Later I learnt that several locals were watching my progress with some interest from the top of Sandy ground, alas only one won any money. Definitely one of my top three all-time scariest moments at sea. As Roger said, I muttered something similiar to "a bit too much sea" as I closed my eyes for about 10 minutes and let the auto-pilot do its thing as we surfed for home at a 45° degree angle.
Interestingly, the 26 GB I ran rings around Capt Bayzand :blink: and his old Starfish in the Alderney Race one day was also a fine stern-sea boat, despite having the same 8'6" beam as its smaller sibling. I used it as a daily commuter once between Guernsey and Alderney when I was doing a 4-day course spread out over 6 days (it would have been way too expensive to use Aurigny) and on two days it was extremely snotty to say the least and a 50' boat would have been well in order for the trip. I used to go to Cherbourg in it regularly with wife and child and we'd arrive in a very comfortable manner compared to the slightly faster RIB crews who'd always be wet and bedraggled. Roger has a point about the back pain with those bloody things.
Suffice to say I am a very BEEG catamaran fan and try and go aboard every one I come across ! It would be my first choice of hull-form if I were ever lucky enough to go back to the chartering again. Having said that, if I had to choose a UK monohull, I would probably try and find a Corvette hull and do a make-over. They may not have the same Force 10 heritage that a Nelson or Dale may have, but they do offer a very good all-round platform with bags of room and enviable sea-keeping for a 32' hull. As I said, I saw one tricked out as a fishing boat in France many years ago, I'd love to find out who did it......mind you, it would depend on where it was going too. I still have a very soft spot for the CyFish 33.....
____________________________
Dustin, a lot of the big party boats in the Gulf are cats (nearly all in alloy), and Tony Allen's Powerglide will eventually end up that way too - he's in Clearwater. It's a fact of life though that speed is king in the USA, and that, coupled with cheap fuel (even now) means that mono-hulls will rule for a while yet. The US does not have the same free-wheeling seafarers that some Europeans countries have, and when I talk cats to people I know should be interested, I still see their eyes glaze over. In the circles you're familiar with, custom cold-moulded boats are the crème de la crème and will remain so for a while. Pretty much the only fellas I know who are interested enough in the hull form are Bark and Stewart. They asked Roy Merritt a couple of years ago if he would entertain the idea of making a cat and he replied certainly - but only when he was dead.
Your impressions of high free-board are also correct, but a lot of that stems from traditional UK traits of seaworthiness. Not having the need to pull 200lbs of tuna on board on a regular basis, and notwithstanding an honourable belief that water should stay outside a boat, UK builders have also had to adhere to specific and very Cromwellian codes of practice over the years, and high deck-levels are common to almost every hull in the UK. And whilst a lower deck would be an admirable trait in a cat, I'd simply be rather more inclined to fabricate a decent and easily-operable cut-out, and keep that high deck and high freeboard. It'll always be there when you want it. Note yourself your remarks about party boats - they catch plenty of big fish on them in the US and none of them have much facility to pat a billfish on the back from the cockpit ! As a general rule, I'd have taken Anguilla, the 9.2 tonnes Cy-Fish 33 I took to Madeira in 1989, ANYWHERE in the world. Although not the fastest boat in the world in those days at barely 16 knots even when squeaky clean, she was indisputably the finest monohull seaboat in her class I have ever had the pleasure of running and I never took a wave aboard in a beam sea in all the water I ran her in, both in the Channel and down in Madeira. But I have done just that in a host of US-built hulls, and every time I have suffered from a nervous tic as bilge lights glowed, pumps whirred and weight gradually left a hull. That is what freeboard will do for a boat and it is not something I would willingly sacrifice in a boat destined primarily for use in offshore all-weather conditions.
[Note : some of you may question the 9.2 tonnes, but that's what Anguilla weighed. She was one of the very first hulls of that marque and her original owner outfitted her for eeling commercially off Bradwell to DOT standards and as a result she sported a very heavy lay-up and massive bulkheads and frames. By comparison, the second CyFish 33 we took to Madeira (Lara Jade) only weighed a tad over 5 tonnes and flew by the seat of her blue knickers with a whacking 375 Iveco in her. Blimey, she was totally different. It just went to show what a difference in hulls there can be........]
Oh dear, rambling again...... sorry. And I just remembered - Bayzand caught some whacking fish with us in Madeira on board Anguilla, must dig out a photo or two...... I've got one of him with a very decent albie somewhere......hmm,,,,
Roddy,
I must ask Joao to open the throttle on Lara Jade one day. I've only ever seen her swanning along at 8 knots and never thought she was capable of much more than around 17 to 18. No question about it they are excellent sea boats, but I'd have thought maybe a little limited in top end, which would be a disadvantage if you needed it. There are a couple of British craft in the Algarve and looking at them, the faster vessels like Offshore 105s etc have a definite edge over the Cyfish in that fishery; although from some of your comments I gather the Offshore is not the best performer in sloppy conditions? What is the Cyfish hull form exactly? They seem to be more semi displacement than full planing craft?
I must confess to being quite a fan of custom cold molded vessels myself...For the type of fishing that gets me going they still deserve, I think, to be the standard for comparison and the best of them look to me to be really good boats indeed - fast, seaworthy, strong, more economical than a solid glass hull and excellent fishing platforms. I like the ones I've seen and been on a lot - but then I've probably not yet come across the bad ones.
Re gunwale height, of the vessels I've fished on, my thoughts were that the Bertram 31s gunwales were definitely too low, the 33 was reasonable, Ron's Mitchell 31 and the Lochin 333 I liked best, being not too high off the water while giving excellent support to brace yourself on a decent fish, and the Nelson 40 was just about ok (good gunwale height but the cockpit floor a tad high above the water). The Lara Jade and Anguilla were higher off the water than I'd have liked, as was the Felusi cat in Gran Canaria (I believe that's the same model as the Albakora in Fuerteventura?). I've noticed the larger American boats in the bigger than around 55 foot class also start getting high off the water and I wonder if Tom could tell us more about how the guys on the Dreamin' On handled their fish. All things considered, I'd probably tend towards easier fish handling as far as the proverbial "everything about boat design represents a compromise" goes - but there are certainly plenty of other fishing situations where a cockpit high off the water is better to have.
Incidentally, with relatively little hull in the water and of course those widely separated props, cats look as though they should go backwards really well? That would certainly interest Stewart...
Regards
Dustin
ps. BTW - Anyone have some photos of a Corvette hull/finished vessel?
Roger Bayzand
18-11-2008, 06:28
Cats seem to be more difficult to get right than monohulls, I am sure when I saw the original model of Rod Baker's cat there was nothing much forward of midships, much like a sailing cat. We were told that it could not carry weight forward. Perhaps this was an old design and the current production craft somewhat different.
A fine deep forefoot can act as a rudder and the vessel will try to pivot around that point, this is why some semi-displacement monohulls can be a pig to control in a big following sea. There is a cat with bulbous bows that has been observed to turn itself through 180 degrees on a couple of occasions. As Roddy says the Glacier Bay is bloody good but I have had to hang on to the helm pretty hard when surfing down a couple of big quartering seas but then we should not have been not in those conditions anyway. Your comments on the 30 are duly noted Roddy, I was very tempted with a 9 month old one with a pair of 350 4ST Yams, next to no hours on the clock and priced at $US 100,000, I wondered why, now I know.
The Southcat is without doubt the best down sea craft I have sailed on, we could power up the ebb tide rip on Alderney's south bank with a good westerly blowing over it, then stop and drift back through the breaking water with the anglers standing up holding their rods. If I had to turn around and drive into the sea give me Glacier Bay any day.
On the economy front, I never did clock what the 215C's burnt at 8 knots because we did not run for any time at that speed. It was only on a couple of particularly lumpy Channel crossings where we were down to 10 knots at time that I noticed a considerable reduction in fuel consumption.
If you are looking for economy take a look at Denis Shultz's site www.supercat.co.za
I fished on the 38 foot (by 16 foot beam I think) Castle Lager in Kenya. Powered by a couple of 85 hp Yamaha 2 strokes, it cruised at just under 20 knots and from Denis's figures burnt 1 ltr per mile at 17 Knots, 2 ltrs at 25/27 knots. It was a very comfortable boat to fish from and rode the seas very well despite being so light, perhaps that is its secret.
John Loftus has the ultimate in economical powered travel his 38 "Mandu" has a couple of little 27 hp Yanmar diesels does 12 knots and burns 0.3 ltrs per mile!
Whilst you are on the site have a look at the 29 foot Sliver.
Regards, Rog
Roddy Hays
18-11-2008, 10:07
Evening Capt Bayzand,
You must have been in some much bigger seas then than me, :) . I can honestly say I never much felt unsafe in the 22 in a stern sea. I also think it's a case of misconceptions too, , whereby sometimes it is easy to fall into a stern-sea for stern-sea comparison, without thinking along the lines of "if s**t really happens I truly will be grateful to be on a cat". Difficult to put into words. I do wholeheartedly agree with you about the trim issues on some - they can be exceptionally finicky to get just right and I get a small impression that the PowerGlide's bow-down attitude doesn't help with the sneezing as there is no nacelle or similiar under the bridge deck there. I don't see much air getting cushioned there either. It would be an interesting experiment for Holger to put 1000kgs of people in the back of the boat and see what it does in a stern sea. I wonder if it would make a difference or not ?
I'd take my impressions or comments on the GB 30 with a pinch of salt. Probably find the one you saw was credit crunch fodder. I certainly don't imagine the boat is bad enough to warrant a hasty re-sale ! I do think it's a strange craft though, neither one thing nor the other, and unless you're after a game of basketball at sea I don't see the point in such vast acreage of deck-space in a small boat ! It's got a very bizarre beam to length footprint in the water too. That's just my opinion of it though.
I've been watching Dennis for ever. If you remember a while ago he was the fella you, me and John Loftus were all going to buy moulds from......sigh. Interesting that John bought that 38 from him, and John does seem delighted with the craft too. I must admit I did not know Yanmar did a 27hp diesel. I thought all they did was the 36hp. Either way, I expect it burns, as you say, a gnat's peeful with it. Has he gone down south of the Scillies with it at all this year ? The Sliver has been on my radar ever since it was launched, but I do notice some mutterings on the SA forums about it. Some say it might not be the right vessel for large seas ?
While you're in Oz, keep an eye out for a builder on the west coast called Fibrelight (http://www.fibreliteboats.com.au/fishing_cab.htm). Fella called Ben makes a very interesting centre-cab with a difference for a 6m craft. The way he builds them is very interesting too. Power to weight ratio is exceptional.
___________________________
Dustin,
You can see some pics of the Corvette here (http://www.boatshowrooms.com/corvette_.aspx), but bear in mind the real deal is an aft cabin cruiser and it would take some imagination to transform it into a game-boat. I imagine, though I may be totally wrong, that the removal of the aft-cabin along what seems to be a natural division where the aft bulkhead joins the cabin would enable a redistribution of existing weighting, whereby the fuel tanks, which are relatively small and outboard of the engines, could be relocated under the cockpit floor, and enlarged to give better tankage. Other weight distribution may also be possible to better replicate what is obviously a thoroughly well-worked design in terms of handling and sea-keeping. It is interesting to see that there are some well-used examples available that could be transformed for very little. It's a hull that has intrigued me ever since I saw it at the London Boatshow (Earls Court) way back in 1984 when I first exhibited the Alderney Anchor Ring. But that is another story.......
When I first went to Madeira I actually tried to find a Corvette that I could re-build but at that particular time there were none suitable for the budget I had, so Anguilla fell into the frame instead. Ironically, I travelled the length and breadth of the UK looking for a boat (at one time a 50' Hatteras being used for surveying at Warsash was almost bought) when Anguilla was for sale just 20 miles down the road in Guersney. Along the way I tested some enormous thing in Weymouth that had just been launched, a transom-less fast thing in the Solent, the first Blyth cat in Essex, a Q36 on the IOW, a certain boat in Port Issac :), several Lochins and Mitchells - the list is endless. The transomless thing was interesting (built in Topsham ?) - very fast but it had stern drives and was not suitable for what we wanted. The vast thing was too vast with very little apart from two huge engines and small wheelhouse. I took Trevor Housby with me to see that one, and he simply said it had no "weight" for the Atlantic. It was fast though - bugga'd if I can remember what it was called though. It had some macho sounding name.......
The Offshore 105 is a design as discussed before. I cannot disparage the vessel for what it is and has been designed for, but suffice to say it would certainly not be my choice of craft for deepwater big-game fishing. That's my personal take. The CyFish 33, on the other hand, is a well executed semi-displacement hull, well suited to large seas. I'm one of those who would trade comfort and sea-worthiness over a few knots any day. Indeed, I am more than happy to get to sea a couple of hours before everyone else, and ride out with a cup of tea and a bacon sarnie without having to hang on for dear life with an eye out for the turbos over-heating. That again, is my take. I'm also more than likely to buy a butt-ugly but practical craft rather than one with racing stripes and a jacuzzi aft of the fly-bridge. This probably as a result of far too many "hairy" moments at sea, in conditions when normal people are settling down in front of the TV with supper, listening to Michael Fish remarking how there isn't going to be a hurricane. Ultimately my choice of vessel will always be based on its inherent survival characteristics rather than how many people it can pull off the quay. And while that may have been a little detrimental to start with for Anguilla, it was easy to over come with lots of well maintained gleaming gear and riggers full of little red flags ! :)
But, I also think we're talking at cross purposes. Gunwales can be cut down to size, or altered in other ways to give both billfish-handling characteristics and/or sea worthiness. What I thought we were talking about was deck height above water-line, which is a totally different thing. Throw in some water-tight hatches and other ingredients and we start to cover a very different spectrum of issues involving buoyancy, hull volume and access to machinery. It's a difficult equation to balance when the MSA is looking over your shoulder. At the end of the road, you'll have to decide whether a 40 boat with a non self-bailing deck level lower than the waterline so you can reach a billfish is better than one where a 10' breaking wave won't even reach the scupper ! :blink:
Roger Bayzand
18-11-2008, 11:21
Good Morning Capt Hays,
Thinking about the twitchy moments down sea in Gecko, it was pretty big. We were in the channel between St Lucia and St Vincent which is noted for the wind funnel effect on top of the Atlantic swell. We had re-engined with 2 stroke Yamaha 90's as the dear old Susies had died through neglect and lack of anybody with a laptop capable of diagnosing faults, but that's another yarn. The yams were considerably lighter which altered the trim and the handling. We we also carrying a fair amount of fishing kit and luggage in the side cabin (it was stuffed full!) so the poor little girl was a bit down by the head.
Saying that she got us through and amazed many people at the bottom end of the Caribbean when they realised we had come there under our own power. I have lost count of the number of times somebody has wandered down the dock and said "That's a great little boat, do you want to sell it?"
I think the very fast 36 foot boat with no transom is a Reliance Rellcraft there was one in Poole and another in Brighton both had legs, in fact many. The Poole boat had about 7 replacements and I think both owners had to pack up because of the continuing problems, enough to put me off. The boats had a shallow V hull and could do something around 30 knots with pair of 200 +/- HP Duoprops. I had one ride and that was enough for me and I had one of the two crew seats. The others were bouncing around on the deck hanging on for dear life, the anglers used to call it the white knuckle ride.
The little Fibrelight looks interesting, quite a handy layout.
Tom, What sort of drive does the Tromso Explorer have?
TomBettle
18-11-2008, 11:28
Hi Tom,
All the best for my old crew member on the trip from the UK to Norway. The boxer shorts on the picture is the pair you want as a souvenir.
I'm looking forward to see you in Norway in 2009.
Regards
Holger
Hey Holger
Great to see you over here!
How is Troms Explorer!?
Have you needed to do any more work on the trim issues that we faced during our journey :unsure:?
Or (this is for Holger only - remember the Western Cape) as she is mainly used as a "River Boat" now, is there no need?
Only joking.
I know you were planning on doing some tidying up inside. Are you still planning this?
Well done on a good season though. I know our friends at Sea Dangler have a feature aboard her next month.
Can't wait to actually come and do some proper fishing next year!
**********
Dustin
My view on the Offshore is that for the purpose Rod Baker designed it, it's brilliant. I think the design was to offer a spacious, safe and fairly seaworthy charter boat for the UK at a fairly budget price. The downside was that you needed to increase you charter rates to cover the chiropractor fees. A cushion glued to the deckhead above the skippers Kab seat was also a very wise move.
The Corvette is a hell of a sea boat, but very pricey and her general design will not lend herself to fishing of any form. If the hull could be used then I see no reason why she would be a fine BG boat.
**********
Roger
She's on shafts.
**********
Roddy
Does the GB truly have finer entry bows than this.
This picture shows the very fine bow quite clearly. Can't remember if the pic is mine or Holger's (If it's yours Holger, thanks for letting me use it! :giveup:).
I still maintain that if you allowed the bow to dig in beneath the spray rail and you weren't perfectly in shape, it was this that pushed her nose round. She certainly didn't spin, but would refuse to respond to the rudder once you were surfing. The first time this became apparent to me was with a wicked wind up the chuff coming out of Poole. Up until that point we'd had lovely weather, but we had to crack on so left Poole into a lot of weather and some relatively hefty seas across the bay.
Holger and Oistein were pussy's and crashed out for the night whilst I took the helm with friend and crew as far as Stavanger, Martin, next to me.
Rather stupidly (very stupidly) I gradually snuck the throttles up to see how she'd behave. It was stupid as not only was it night, but we were crossing in foul weather and couldn't see much beyond the pulpit rails anyway.
Anyway, I was still acting a little gingerly, so only running at about 18 knots when The Bridge cardinal buoy passed our starboard beam as we did a Pepe Cat (Shogun, maybe, it was dark). At exactly the same moment we hit the rough water and the entire boat was picked up and accelerated by about 8 or 9 knots and running at a 45 degree angle straight onto the Shingle Bank. I was acutely aware of the dents I could put in the boat on the bank so was more than a little concerned as TE refused to answer to full lock on the rudder. Bare in mind I had never experienced this reaction before, my thoughts came blurting of of my gob, "We've lost all steering" and instantly Holger was peering over my left shoulder (still in his boxer shorts). Given a second or two to calm down, I obviously killed the starboard engine and got the boat back on track that way, but it was a bit of a surprise. Luckily the next hour of the journey allowed me the smooth water of the Solent to calm down a little and prepare for the open water out beyond Selsey. By this time we were a little more organised and quickly started to learn to predict TE's behaviour. She was never a big problem after that as you could react before anything happened, but I suspect that if Holger hadn't been so tight and had fitted an autopilot (Yes 2103nm with no AP), it would have struggled anyway.
The first few days of our trip were far more eventful if less beautiful than the end.
Day one leaving Padstow ended up with us losing the port engine rounding Lands End. Then the starboard engine failed as we approached Penzance and we needed towing in by a big orange boat at Newlyn. This was, and I don't care if Rod B disagrees, entirely due to bits of loose gel coat, sponge, fibre glass shards and dust in the fuel tanks. "Fit new filters" I hear you shout. Well we would have done if Iveco in Southampton had given us the right ones. Anyway, the nice guys at Iveco in Brixham were out the next morning with a huge box of the correct spares. None of which we needed after that.
Then was my incident at The Bridge and after handing over to Holger and Oistein shortly before dawn I was woken at breakfast time by the crackle of the VHF as Dover Coastguard persistently tried to call up the unidentified vessel that was heading straight up (the wrong way) the traffic separation lanes! All good fun and a sharp turn to right and Calais dead ahead soon put that bit right. After that, we had the wiper incident after leaving Den Helden (Spelling?). The stunning Baltic, a hard night trip along the Skaggerak (F6 on the nose and Holger not wanting to tack as we were on a deadline for Stavanger).
Perhaps the most exciting seas were the literally mountainous ones we encountered on the port quarter as we rounded the Western Cape of Norway. Without doubt the biggest seas I've ever been in on a small boat. But once we had all got used to the motion, TE handled them fine. It was very windy with the Norwegian forecast giving about 15m/s sustained. And the seas towered well over us, perhaps 30 feet and rolling in very fast with big breaking crests.
Lots of fun and great company. Very glad I joined the guys from Norway in helping them deliver their new boat.
Here is the knife edge hull. You can just see Tony Allen's boat at the edge of the picture.
http://www.pbsbac.co.uk/photoalbum/albums/userpics/10174/normal_On_a_knife_edge_-_This_incredible_wave_piercing_bow_is_sharp_enough _to_cut_anything_not_just_water%21_%282%29.JPG
Finally, please excuse my ignorance, but I am fairly new to Cats. When you discuss "Sneezing", what are you referring to?
With TE, she was incredibly smooth running in almost any sea except one right on the nose. It didn't need to be a big sea compared with what she could take in any other direction.
For example we had a 6 on the nose and perhaps a 4 to 5 foot chop with the odd bigger one.
Clearly the answer was to tack, but we didn't.
She'd come off any wave very smoothly, but when we hit the bigger ones there would be an enormous whoosh of air under the hull and another whoosh of air from your lungs as you physically got winded by the upwards surge of the boat.... Is this what you refer to?
Tom
TomBettle
18-11-2008, 12:16
Holger
Anymore of that awesome smoked Salmon that Oistein acquired for us?
I know that I could "lose" at least 3 sides here for Christmas.
I'll have one
Martin will have one
Charlie will have one
As you can guess, it went down pretty well with these guys too.
Happy to pay the going rate!?
Tom
Should you not be selling boats Mr B instead of waffling about them
:rolleyes:
TomBettle
18-11-2008, 12:54
Should you not be selling boats Mr B instead of waffling about them
:rolleyes:
No one to sell them too Stan :giveup:
I am going to take some pictures of some in a minute. Quick blast up the harbour on the Rib to snap some shots of the bosses passenger boats for brokerage.
Does that count?
Anyway, I like waffling!:clap2:
TomBettle
18-11-2008, 13:49
Tom,
Your just coming for the one week, right? or was it a long weekend?
:headhurt:
Aram (www.gonefishing.tv)
....I go quiet when I am fishing.
Not because of the concentration, simply 'cos I am usually stuffing my face or grunting too much trying to wind in a doggie and having a very poor technique.
Ravelling Tangler
18-11-2008, 13:55
own up , Tom :- I reckon that note where you said you don't know what "sneezing" is was a lure to try to get a bite !
Especially since you then go on to give a text-book description of it.
We (I am speaking for everyone here) can't believe you haven't used the term before . . . . . . . so what's the trap you are setting ? (grin ! )
I`m with Roger on that one, we await your response Mr Waffle, sorry Bettle ( knew it had an E at the end)
TomBettle
18-11-2008, 14:17
own up , Tom :- I reckon that note where you said you don't know what "sneezing" is was a lure to try to get a bite !
Especially since you then go on to give a text-book description of it.
We (I am speaking for everyone here) can't believe you haven't used the term before . . . . . . . so what's the trap you are setting ? (grin ! )
Seriously never heard it before in UK general boating terminology.
Have stumbled over it a few times during discussion with my esteemed colleagues within this thread and in researching game boats for my plans of world domination.
I'd kind of worked out what I thought it meant... and it seems I was right?
No bite. When I am in the company of far more experienced guys than me, I like reassurance that I am understanding the conversation correctly.:giveup:
Roddy Hays
18-11-2008, 17:03
Just a quickie Tom, here's a pic of the bows of a 22 GB. More later....
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a25/RoddyHays/GlacierBay22hullbow.jpg
TomBettle
18-11-2008, 17:04
Just a quickie Tom, here's a pic of the bows of a 22 GB. More later....
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a25/RoddyHays/GlacierBay22hullbow.jpg
Smart Arse!!!!:hammer:
Ravelling Tangler
18-11-2008, 17:12
Wow ! you could turn a manatee into three pieces with those bows !
Holger - 70 degrees North
18-11-2008, 20:05
Hey Tom,
I have done a lot of work on the boat. The whole floor and the "cabin's" and the engine rooms are complete isolated now, new seal's on all hadges, defreezer everywhere and all 220 V fuses are changed. Also the tables are changed. One was destoyed by a guest..:hammer:
I'm more used to the cat now. It is a little bit different than a RIB or a monohull trawler type boat.
We had some bad weather last summer and on the trip from Tromsø to Skjervøy one guy was already prepared to die.
The best way to handle the following sea for me is to use only the throttle handles and forget the rudder.
When you are used to it, it works very well.
All the best from Oistein too. You have learnt him an english word (or 2), who he is using a lot (specially whe he meet's me)
Salmon should be OK for you. We will speak about that.
Holger
TomBettle
18-11-2008, 20:43
Hey Tom,
I have done a lot of work on the boat. The whole floor and the "cabin's" and the engine rooms are complete isolated now, new seal's on all hadges, defreezer everywhere and all 220 V fuses are changed. Also the tables are changed. One was destoyed by a guest..:hammer:
I'm more used to the cat now. It is a little bit different than a RIB or a monohull trawler type boat.
We had some bad weather last summer and on the trip from Tromsø to Skjervøy one guy was already prepared to die.
The best way to handle the following sea for me is to use only the throttle handles and forget the rudder.
When you are used to it, it works very well.
All the best from Oistein too. You have learnt him an english word (or 2), who he is using a lot (specially whe he meet's me)
Salmon should be OK for you. We will speak about that.
Holger
Holger
With the biggest smile on my face...
Tell Oistein.
Foooook Awfffff!!!!!
Roddy,
Thanks for the heads up on the Corvettes - just did a little bit of reading up which was extremely interesting. Will keep my eyes out for one in the future. They're lower to the water than I thought they'd be (!!!) but seem to have a nice bow flare and quite a pretty shearline. Several on Yachtworld surprised me in terms of their pricing - no wonder you couldn't find one to your budget back then.
Has anyone fished Corvette's smaller hull (Starfish) and/or the 360/380? According to the Corvette Marine site moulds for those two are available.
Thanks
Dustin
Roger Bayzand
19-11-2008, 01:08
Hi Tom,
Sneezing is the mist and spray that some cats can blast forwards, it generally happens at slow speeds when a wave is trapped between the hulls. The GB 22 would do it when trolling into a head sea if two people were on the bow, it did not last long as they generally moved after the shower. Never had it with the South Cat as it had much more bouancy in the bows.
That bit of water around the Bridge buoy and SW Shingles is pretty evil, I have had two lifeboat calls to yachts that have been destroyed there.
Regards Rog
TomBettle
19-11-2008, 11:07
Hi Tom,
Sneezing is the mist and spray that some cats can blast forwards, it generally happens at slow speeds when a wave is trapped between the hulls. The GB 22 would do it when trolling into a head sea if two people were on the bow, it did not last long as they generally moved after the shower. Never had it with the South Cat as it had much more bouancy in the bows.
That bit of water around the Bridge buoy and SW Shingles is pretty evil, I have had two lifeboat calls to yachts that have been destroyed there.
Regards Rog
Cheers Roger
Thanks for the description. Totally understand now.
The Powerglide doesn't appear to do that at all (unless Holger has experienced it since I left him in July), but she does kick up vast amounts of very fine spray down either side. The leave a thick coat of salt on the windows, perfect for seasoning your dinner when dining alfresco. I actually think that the spary rails which are fitted do nothing to help, if anything hinder this by atomising the spray as it hits them and as the hulls are so sheer with zero flare it simply blasts the spray straight up the side of the boat.
She came close once, but that was simply due to hitting huge standing waves in Holland. This was the wiper incident and was less a sneeze and more projectile vomit.
As for the Needles Channel.
Yep, I do actually know it extremely well, but was going far too fast, in a boat I wasn't familiar with, at night, in nasty conditions (Stupid Stupid Boy :bounce:).
Typically I would have taken the north channel out of Poole and across to Hurst, but the foul weather meant there was every chance of a decent wave dumping us on the bottom when coming out of the East Lieu Channel and with the speed that Holger wanted to maintain (I'll blame him as he is offline at the moment) I would never have seen any of the millions of pots and nets stretching from Poole Patch to beyond The Ledge. It seemed that the Needles was the lesser of two evils at the time.
Tom
Ravelling Tangler
22-11-2008, 11:55
"This was the wiper incident and was less a sneeze and more projectile vomit."
Eeek! are you sure the Troms Explorer did not have concussion ?
Still, it makes the point - very forcefully. :ohmy: :laugh:
Roddy Hays
29-10-2009, 13:54
Resurrection time :
"Well, another idea to throw at you might be for you to ask Henriques if they've ever thought of putting a long cabin, with no fly-bridge, on their 28. They did several of that ilk in different sizes and they are very amenable to things like that"
I talked with the guys from Infinity not long about about something completely different, but they mentioned a little something.
This, to be precise : a 28 pilothouse Henriques. Doh !
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a25/RoddyHays/2114426_11.jpg
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a25/RoddyHays/1963810_17.jpg
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a25/RoddyHays/1963810_53.jpg
The yellow one is a single engined 25 knot cruise boat with a bow-thruster, but they have also done them with twins (maybe the first pic with the tower is one of these). I suspect the twins need engine boxes, whereas this one pictured is a flush-deck model. Talked to someone who owns one and he regularly takes it 80 miles offshore.
I also found some pics of a nice 31' pilothouse/flybridge something built in Cornwall : he still has the moulds........ this is a straight shaft drive vessel too.
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a25/RoddyHays/kingfisher31.jpg
Hmm, a few more choices for a small big-game boat then !
:crazy:
WOW....if the best european boat can wait 12 months for a reply then I guess 2 months is nothing for me to get mine :whistling
Aram
Roddy Hays
29-10-2009, 14:20
Aram, since I sent you the price-list I haven't heard back from you. If you've sent me an e-mail or a PM I certainly haven't got it ! Besides, it's not two months anyway (you exaggerator, you !) - I wrote to you on the 5th, and sent you the pricing on the 6th !
How's tricks anyway ? Any fish about ?
Roddy
The pricelist never came through Roddy. info@gonefishing.tv?
I'll PM you a private addy too, just in case.
Sounds like you never got my 2.5 page PM via here either. Hmmmm.
Let's see if one list makes it's way via email & I'll copy & paste the essay in a reply to that.
Aram
PS. Fish? not bad, as & when it's done. An estimated grander I'm aware of & more recently an 800+ that was brought in. A couple of 400-500 estimates more recently than that too. Did you miss the "Are we sometimes too quick..." thread?
Roddy Hays
29-10-2009, 14:36
The pricelist never came through Roddy. info@gonefishing.tv? I'll look. It was the one you sent me anyway.
I'll PM you a private addy too, just in case. cool
Sounds like you never got my 2.5 page PM via here either. Hmmmm.nope. I thought you said you had lost it, anyway ?
Let's see if one list makes it's way via email & I'll copy & paste the essay in a reply to that. yep, no worries
Aram
PS. Fish? not bad, as & when it's done. An estimated grander I'm aware of & more recently an 800+ that was brought in was the grander released ? Way cool if that is the case. . A couple of 400-500 estimates more recently than that too. Did you miss the "Are we sometimes too quick..." thread? yes, what was that about ?
Snip....
Sounds like you never got my 2.5 page PM via here either. Hmmmm.nope. I thought you said you had lost it, anyway ?
That was the 3 page :hammer:....I re-wrote the bloody thing and managed to condense it by 1/2 a page second time round, double :hammer::hammer:
Snip....Did you miss the "Are we sometimes too quick..." thread? yes, what was that about ?
Here it is http://www.worldseafishing.com/forums/showthread.php?t=208227
Me & Dave (at least) were hoping for a recollection from some of your exploits.
Aram
PM sent.
Roddy Hays
29-10-2009, 17:50
"Me & Dave (at least) were hoping for a recollection from some of your exploits."
Exploits ? Blimey, my exploits weren't a great deal to write home about.
Get up. Throw alarm clock at wall. Cold shower. Walk to boat, muttering. Buy bread rolls on way. Unlock boat. Dip engines, check fuel and water, have coffee. Say Good Morning several times, shout at deckhand once. Fire up engines, go upstairs. Push a button or two, wipe sunglasses, push throttles forward a bit, turn wheel. Sit down, turn wheel more.
Go below to pee, mutter Jammy Git once or twice under breath, shout Well Done, too. Swear at deckhand twice. Say Jammy Git under breath again in afternoon, shout Well Done again. Go home. Tie up boat, throw water at shiny things. Mutter under breath about jammy clients, Bradbury included. Swear at deckhand for last time.
Drink beer, go home. Sleep.
Hardly exciting, really. Now the anglers, well WOW !!! What a day they had !!!!!
However hard you try to dress it down, your last sentence sums up your passion for the game Mr Hays!
Besides, even the bit down to the last sentence is what some of us enjoy reading (or have you forgotten that we've seen THIS (http://www.worldseafishing.com/forums/showthread.php?t=203705) already?). So you loose on both counts :bleh:
Sorry for hijacking your thread Dustin, but next on the list tonight is that long awaited email!
Aram
"Me & Dave (at least) were hoping for a recollection from some of your exploits."
Exploits ? Blimey, my exploits weren't a great deal to write home about.
Get up. Throw alarm clock at wall. Cold shower. Walk to boat, muttering. Buy bread rolls on way. Unlock boat. Dip engines, check fuel and water, have coffee. Say Good Morning several times, shout at deckhand once. Fire up engines, go upstairs. Push a button or two, wipe sunglasses, push throttles forward a bit, turn wheel. Sit down, turn wheel more.
Go below to pee, mutter Jammy Git once or twice under breath, shout Well Done, too. Swear at deckhand twice. Say Jammy Git under breath again in afternoon, shout Well Done again. Go home. Tie up boat, throw water at shiny things. Mutter under breath about jammy clients, Bradbury included. Swear at deckhand for last time.
Drink beer, go home. Sleep.
Hardly exciting, really. Now the anglers, well WOW !!! What a day they had !!!!!
TomBettle
22-11-2009, 12:17
Hi guys
Just to bring this old thread back on track...
Anyone have an opinion on this as a possible contender as a pocket (but professional) game fishing boat.
It's cheap and cheerful and with a bit of adding to looks like it could do the job?
I know Maguro mentioned the brand at the start of the thread, but know little (nothing) more about them.
http://www.findafishingboat.com/detail.php?aid=15067
All input gratefully received.
NB
Roddy Hays
23-11-2009, 10:09
Hello NB,
Everything about the boat looked "do-able" until i saw that the engines were under flush hatches in the cockpit, and I suddenly saw a multitude of problems involving much speed in inappropriate directions amidst much noise, spray, water and electric blue overtones. My mind altered state and I could see six inches of water draining onto Yanmars and electrics shorting, turbos whining with rust and those lovely salty residues glinting softly in the overhead Mindelo sun.
However, if you glassed in some engine boxes (both for somewhere to sit and store stuff in (electro-hydraulic rams would be good) then I could see some possibilities.
It does seem cheap though. Maybe too cheap for someone whose flown 7 hours from the UK for ?
Regards to your force 10 from this part of France's bright sunny winter's morning. :sun:
PS: it's too damn small really, isn't it ? I can see problems with engine boxes too........ better go with the old Kingfisher 31. At least we know what they're built like !
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a25/RoddyHays/DSC00022.jpg
TomBettle
23-11-2009, 12:12
I do take your point Roddy.
The Kingfisher does come across as THE boat from the UK, but it's about the price....
Getting a pocket rocket for the first couple of years whilst getting established maybe a way forward?
Definitely need to find away of stopping water flooding the engine room (and also the saloon).
I have considered the size too. If going to sub 30 feet, I would think we would be better with a proper centre console walk around, professionally kitted out?
Roddy Hays
23-11-2009, 12:41
If you want a sub 30 centre console, where are you going to put the chair ? In the bow ? If so, go with a single diesel. Much more efficient and much better service access. The way they cram twins into centre consoles can mean you'll need a pygmy mechanic.
A Strike 29 or 26 with a big lump in it would be good. There's a twin diesel Strike here (http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1989/Strike-Strke-29-2052716/Ft-Lauderdale/FL/United-States) for only $36,900.
I actually have a feeling you'd get a damn good price for a single diesel new boat from them right now. I would put money on them having a 29 hull, built, in the grass, with a foreclosed buyer ......with a new boat you could do away with the cuddy and get the bow area perfectly purpose-built for fishing and wiring. A single diesel gives you far more sternway in a hurry than an outboard, and as long as you tell your anglers that there may be some, **ahem**, difficulties on following a fish on the wire itself, I think it would work well.
http://www.strikeyachts.com/images/yachts/Strike29Open/CNV00000010.jpg
Need to get rid of the old "marlin" board / swim-step..
Ravelling Tangler
24-11-2009, 14:50
Is some sort of wireman "safety line" more necessary in a single-engined wire-at-the-bow vessel than with the usual cockpit set up ?
I didn't notice the "jammy client" mutter (back in October) ; well as Napoleon almost said "I'd rather be jammy than skilled". I wonder if he ever got given the chance to try the fishing off St Helena ?
And if Roddy ever wants to remember exciting (and frustrating) all he has to do is think "Jay Cheromcha" grin !
Roddy Hays
24-11-2009, 15:11
This statement is plain wrong - And if Roddy ever wants to remember exciting (and frustrating) all he has to do is think "Jay Cheromcha" grin !
This statement is correct - Roddy looks down from bridge at Bradbury in chair, mutters "why doesn't he wind faster ?" (frustrating).
"Oh, he did wind faster !" (exciting)
I await your response. :slap:
Roddy Hays
24-11-2009, 15:16
Is some sort of wireman "safety line" more necessary in a single-engined wire-at-the-bow vessel than with the usual cockpit set up ?
Probably not, Roger (though in both instances they cannot be anything but safer), but my remark was aimed more towards making sure the gunwale area has vertical hullsides and a decent toe-rail under.
The hull-sides can be utilised quite efficiently for storage, even if they do reduce the workable deck-space. However, they would make the area much safer to work in.
Ravelling Tangler
24-11-2009, 18:36
Thanks for that - I had completely overlooked the matter of a toe-rail, and the way the inward edge of the capping is definitely outboard of your feet in that area of so many centre consoles.
P.S. I believe I have photographic evidence from Tom Bettle that I can wind fast, although my reel hand does not appear blurred - something I can only put down to him using those newfangled chips or film (instead of a good old plate) and some incredible shutter-speed !
There is a range between, I guess, 26 and 32 feet that I think works very well in an express or Palm Beach configuration. If the objective was trolling for billfish I would prefer this sort of configuration, with a center console helm station, over the traditional walkaround center console because of its greater weather protection, dry storage space and (with a tower added) visibility. Something like this:
http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm131/Patudo01/Barcos/41526-re-2002-27-ft-tides-custom-ex.jpg
http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm131/Patudo01/Barcos/2039160_9.jpg
(I would like the center console a foot or so further forward so there was more space for a chair at the back.)
I think there is room for some development in weather protection in center consoles though - I would like to see for instance something like a Botnia Targa with open sides and back. Walkaround capability is undoubtedly good to have if the vessel is used for other forms of sportfishing. A six man jigging charter can fish more easily from a 25 foot center console than they could from a 35 foot flybridge sportfisher.
If the vessel is a single inboard you have a clean transom therefore IMO much of the rationale for having the chair in front (to get away from the outboard line cutters at the back) is taken away. I always feel a little worried when a boat is being driven toward a fish that it might make a switchback and go under the bow. Wiring a fish is more intuitive for both wireman and, I'm sure, skipper with the wireman at the stern - a fish that has its head turned can be led more easily and if it doesn't have its head turned, switching from reverse to forward to lead the fish when the wireman has its head turned seems more straightforward than whatever you would do if the wireman was in the bow (I'd welcome any recommendations). If you had to fish an outboard vessel you would find a way, but I bet you'd welcome being able to wire from a clean transom too.
As for single inboard vs outboard(s) single diesel gives you fishability but there is a lot to be said for the modular nature of outboards too. I would always prefer to fish from the single inboard given the choice but I can also see myself getting an outboard vessel in the event I decided to own a boat.
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I share Roddy's reservations about the ARS boat in Tom's link. Even if you handled the boat to minimize backing up I don't see how you could avoid having saltwater on the deck every now and then.
I'd look for a sound older hull in whatever size range would suit your budget, as well as the location you planned to put it in. (Every time I run that channel between Santo Antao and Sao Vicente I am grateful to be on a 33+ footer.) A well planned rebuild will result in a fishing layout far better than anything you are likely to find.
Best regards
patudo
Marlinhunter2
24-02-2011, 20:00
check out www.releaseboatworks.com
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