Competition casting 1950s.

[spinyeel]

Just wondering if any of our older members can recall what type of reels were used for tournament casting back in the 50s and 60s?Apparently the guys used to hit some serious distances.Well over 200 metres.

[oldchukka]

the only person that comes to mind, was peter bagnall, who cast with, if i remember correctly.--a.b.u rods and reels

[philtherod]

Reels were Penn Surfmaster 100, Squidder145/6 with the fins removed, the 180 Baymaster, and the Mitchell captain 602 (602P and AP). Abu 6000 size didn't really appear until the 1960's, and no-one really took surfcasting seriously until the formation of the South & South East England shorecasting club (later became the UKSF), and the Hundred plus club (don't know what happened to that. Casters in the ses early days included Bill Roberts, Dennis Darkin, Peter Bagnall, Brian Harris, Ron Fouracres, Dick Swift ( he held the 6oz record until TC came along), Ian Gillespie (rod breaker), Tony Fordham were all involved. There were several others I can't remember, sorry if you're still alive!!!

philtherod

[spill]

I had a Penn Squidder in my teens (this was only the 1990s!) - respect goes out to anyone that could cast 200m+ with one of those. Perhaps it was because my one still had the spool fins!:notworthy

[themrbeast]

300 Mitchell "Wedding Cake" Tournament
Circa 1963.

The rotating head on a normal Mitchell 300 reel turns clockwise, when viewed from the back of the reel. Since most people are right handed, this presents two problems for the tournament caster: First, when casting for accuracy, most competitors used the forefinger, during the cast, on the rim of the spool to slow the cast. This does not work well with a right forefinger because the line is coming off the spool in the wrong direction. Secondly, It was difficult for the right hander to lift the line with his finger to catch it with the pick-up.

Prior to the advent of this reel, a lot of competitors used the right hand version, the 301, because it eliminated this problem.

The rotating head on these competition reels turns counter clockwise (when viewed from the back of the reel). This was accomplished by using a 301 rotating head, and an intermediate gear to cause the head to rotate clockwise.

There were several different spools manufactured for these reels. This particular spool is a four stage design. The Manual pickup is tripple adjustable. The front (small part) of the spool is used to hand wind a shocker line. The other stages of the spool hold the main line.

Also, it has a "lock down nut" on the handle shaft to keep it from turning while casting.

Only 60 of these reels were produced and only 12 are known to exist today.

Considered "Super Rare" in the community of Mitchell collectors.

here a link to other mitchell reels
http://www.imageevent.com/jimfordham

you will have to use the link as the pictures did not come out

[oldchukka]

somewhere in the back of my mind i recall some dispute over the subject of amateur/pro,s and ateam that peter bagnall was a member of, does anyone recall the story and anything else from that era.
ive met peter quite a few times over the years, last time was when i was having a few practice casts behind his house at morecambe. he said , i see you are,nt improving much, when i asked why, he said, its obvious cos the field is still big enough for you,--- could,nt argue with that.

[Mackembow]

Reels were Penn Surfmaster 100, Squidder145/6 with the fins removed, the 180 Baymaster, and the Mitchell captain 602 (602P and AP). Abu 6000 size didn't really appear until the 1960's, and no-one really took surfcasting seriously until the formation of the South & South East England shorecasting club (later became the UKSF), and the Hundred plus club (don't know what happened to that. Casters in the ses early days included Bill Roberts, Dennis Darkin, Peter Bagnall, Brian Harris, Ron Fouracres, Dick Swift ( he held the 6oz record until TC came along), Ian Gillespie (rod breaker), Tony Fordham were all involved. There were several others I can't remember, sorry if you're still alive!!!

philtherod

Was there not a guy called Moncrieff, maybe Les. I can just recall a story in a very old sea angler. He may have been pals with Terry Carroll.

[Rob]

Was there not a guy called Moncrieff, maybe Les.

Yes there was, no longer with us but he put surfcasting on the map. He was once quoted as saying something like "One day when everyone can cast over 100 yards, it will be the anglers with the sense to drop short that will catch."

It's worth remembering that his distances were amazing considering the gear available then. 12ft glass rods and modified boat reels. gear has come a long way but distances haven't increased all that much really proving it is the technique rather than the tools that make the difference, and he was considered one of the pioneers of developing those techniques.

[philtherod]

Was there not a guy called Moncrieff, maybe Les. I can just recall a story in a very old sea angler. He may have been pals with Terry Carroll.

Yes Les was involved, he was the President of the UKSF, and it is his image that is on the badge....but....he refused for many years to take part, saying that to do so would do nothing for his cause, which was to get the orginary guy to improve.
I quote from the Jan 1968 editorial of Angling magazine:
came a time when Moncrieff (I'll call him Les) wrote that he, Dick swift and Fred williams were "competent casters". He was trying to show that although the three used different techniques, that similar distances were achieved. For this he was taken to task again by Eric Horsfall Turner, secretary of the British Casting Association, who suggested that Les should not have classed his style with that of Dick swift because he had not shown that he could beat him.
Les had not cast competitively at that date, what he termed "a childish trial of strength" with the top tournament surfcasters. But he was obviously annoyed by Horsfall-Turner's attempts to challenge Les, os in July 1967 he took part in his first tournament, but NOT with surfcasting gear, but in the 5/8oz distance event at the Scottish Casting Championship, Hawick.
Les won with 92.9 metres against Horsfall-Turners 79.6 metres. With regard to the surfcasting, remember that the first 200 yard "official" cast was several years in the future.
Again I quote from Angling, May 1968:
"A few weeks ago I went with two friends to watch Les, Bill Roberts and Gordon Moody practising on a measured court. We took our own rods to compare our own abilities......Here are some hard facts about Les's gear and distances that day.
With a 13ft 6in dural-butted rod and Penn Baymaster with 23lb. line and 6oz he cast 175 yards, a 14ft 6in dural butt rod and 4oz "well over" 180yards, and with a 16foot reverse taper did 160 yards with a 2oz.
Brian Harris, who wrote the report, cast 142 yards with a 4oz lead.
Gordon Moody used a production Hardy "Longbow" to cast 176(6oz), 172(4oz), and 147(2oz)."
Les went on to help Terry Carroll in his casting, Terry broke the record and almost became the first to record an official 200 yarder...his record measured 197yards 1foot 2in....so close!
Bear in mind that these were years of experiment and investigation, it was a very interesting period in angling history, and I am happy to have met many of these pioneers, and sad that so many are casting no more.

philtherod

[spinyeel]

It's even more amazing that with a few exceptions notably the Squidder,most of the reels had no ball bearings or cast controllers.

[KeithN]

Reels were Penn Surfmaster 100, Squidder145/6 with the fins removed, the 180 Baymaster, and the Mitchell captain 602 (602P and AP). Abu 6000 size didn't really appear until the 1960's, and no-one really took surfcasting seriously until the formation of the South & South East England shorecasting club (later became the UKSF), and the Hundred plus club (don't know what happened to that. Casters in the ses early days included Bill Roberts, Dennis Darkin, Peter Bagnall, Brian Harris, Ron Fouracres, Dick Swift ( he held the 6oz record until TC came along), Ian Gillespie (rod breaker), Tony Fordham were all involved. There were several others I can't remember, sorry if you're still alive!!!

philtherod


Phil,

I know Brian Harris and Tony Fordham very well. They are both alive and kicking and still enjoying their fishing. Most of the time they fly fish for Trout but i know Brian still visits the beach occasionally.

Would they know you? If so I'll mention your name next time I see them

KeithN

[Issy]

I learned to cast from a Leslie Moncreiff article, I could out cast most of my mates using the technique he used. I still have, and occasionally use, my old Penn Delmar reel I used in the 60's.

[philtherod]

Yes I know Brian from the '70's onward, I used to visit him in my extended lunch hour in London when he was editor of "Angling". Through him I met many of the legends of angling, Dennis Darkin, Big Les, Digger Derrington, Clive Gammon, John Darling, Ian Gillespie and many more.
Todays magazines do not have the writing talent, imagination and forethought that these guys had. Of these only Brian, Tony Dennis and Clive are still with us, and I often raise a glass to salute these pioneers, without whom we would be still in the angling middle ages.

philtherod

[oldchukka]

what you say is correct, they were legends. when i look at those names ,i remember articles written and people written about. they were real heavyweights of angling

[midas]

Philtherod ,i agree about the standard of writers in angling magazines today ,but do you think in the late 60,s and early 70,s it was "easier" to make big advances in tackle and techniques so innovations were more common place due to the standard of tackle that was available beforehand.What i am trying to get at is if the same writers were about today could they still make the same new discoveries and advances or have we almost reached a standstill ,afterall we are back to using rods that bend all the way to the butt and Penn reels again ,haven,t we seen that somewhere before?

[philtherod]

What goes around comes around, I suppose! Ian, Bill Roberts, John Holden, and a few others were involved in the evolution of a method of fishing, which culminated in an article, "The first ever bare-bones, chopped-reel and breakaway type Cod", which you can probably work out for yourself what it meant. There were many experimenting along similar lines, most without the contacts to compare methods (no internet those days), history is always written by the winner, this applied even here. The breakaway type lead is a remarkable success, but there were several other leads that are now mostly forgotten. Don Neish tried rubber bands, Dennis Darkin tried a nose-cone that came away under pressure, in rods, Don Neish produced a rod for bass that contained mercury metal, the idea was that when you cast, the mercury stayed in the butt, when you wanted to strike a fish harder you lowered the tip so the mercury travelled to the tip and added more power to the strike. Can you imagine what the Health and Safety Gestapo would say about mercury!!!

philtherod

[Rajabatis]

I learned to cast from a Leslie Moncreiff article, I could out cast most of my mates using the technique he used. I still have, and occasionally use, my old Penn Delmar reel I used in the 60's.
Les was a great fisherman too. He was famous for taking big cod at Dungness. I used to see his pictures often in the angling papers.
He was invited up to give a talk at our club in Edinburgh and to demonstrate casting. The club rooms were only just a short walk to the esplanade. We all trooped out after Les to see him cast.....
It was blowing a right gale straight in his face and pouring down. He just knelt down in the wet and did his famous "Layback cast" and put the lead out of sight!
He used a Hardy Longbow rod and a Penn Squidder Junior reel.

We were all so enthused. Nobody could afford a "Hardy Longbow" but I remember there was a rod with a similar reverse taper butt. The Springheel" that was a bit less expensive. I was only 17 and couldn't afford that either! Best I could afford was nn Edgar Sealey 12ft thing with handles on it like motorcycle grips and a big chromed brass reel seat too far up the butt and brass ferrule joints.
The Clyde estuary and the sea lochs there were thick with cod then and we had double figure fish and good bags from the shore often - using our newly learned "Layback Cast".

[bigfish]

I still have my reverse taper Les Moncreiff rod although I haven't used it for many years now,if I remember right it was as soft as sh1t and bent at both ends just like a long bow!

[Rajabatis]

I still have my reverse taper Les Moncreiff rod although I haven't used it for many years now,if I remember right it was as soft as sh1t and bent at both ends just like a long bow!
Yes it had a reverse taper from the reel seat down. The idea was that the butt flexed to smooth out it's recovery from loaded and take the snatch out of the cast. Things have moved on a bit from that design.

[steve w]

I seem to remember when I was a young kid seeing somebody cast either 150 or175 yards using an Alvey centrepin reel with 30lb mainline and no leader! I still use a version of the Layback Style that I taught myself from Angling magazine in the late 60s early 70s.

[spinyeel]

Alyey sidecasts have won a lot of comps over here,and the beauty is they are very effective fishing reels aswell.It's actually recomended that if you drop them in the sand,to rinse them out in the surf.Tuff reels indeed.Nothing casts an unweighted bait further either!

[Rajabatis]

Alyey sidecasts have won a lot of comps over here,and the beauty is they are very effective fishing reels aswell.It's actually recomended that if you drop them in the sand,to rinse them out in the surf.Tuff reels indeed.Nothing casts an unweighted bait further either!
Hi A great reel. Simple and robust. Never actually used one unfortunately. The way the spool is turned is reminiscent of some of our vintage british reels. On some of these the spool actually comes off and is put on a spigot at the front. Then replaced for winding in. A bit laborious.
The swivelling spool is a much better idea. That idea has been reinvented recently on some freshwater centrepin reels over here.
The way the line comes of then is twisted as it is wound back on or vice versa. Does that cause any problems with the line?

Know anything about the historty of the maker?

[spinyeel]

You need to use good quality swivels to prevent line twist,I never had a problem.They are still made in Queensland.I think Alvey have been making reels now for about 80 years.They have quite a good web site.

[philtherod]

The Australian Alvey reels caused terrible twist in the line...Grice and Young made a sidecasting reel called the "Orlando", where the reel spool was detached from the frame and mounted at 90 degrees to the frame to cast, with the spool handles alternately facing up, and then down the axis of the rod. the reel was fitted with a "reminder"lever as to which way to mount the spool next cast. I have one if anyone wants to see it.
I'm surprised the japanese haven't brought out something similar, I know they used to do a similar reel (Fuji) over 20 years ago.

philtherod

[spinyeel]

Apparently Alvey reels were used by a certain Irishman to cast out big baits off the shore for Porbeagle Sharks years ago.I don't think line twist was a problem for him or thousands of Aussie anglers who catch every type of fish imaginable on them,including large sharks and Sailfish.The correct ball bearing or good quality swivels are the secret.

[Rajabatis]

Apparently Alvey reels were used by a certain Irishman to cast out big baits off the shore for Porbeagle Sharks years ago.I don't think line twist was a problem for him or thousands of Aussie anglers who catch every type of fish imaginable on them,including large sharks and Sailfish.The correct ball bearing or good quality swivels are the secret.
Well remembered. I think if I remember correctly his name was Jack Shine. His exploits were made public in one of our magazines, "Angling" Now long gone unfortunately. It was Porbeagle sharks he was catching.
The reel always struck me as a good reel for chucking out big baits for sharks and such. Whole fish that can't be cast so well with a multiplier. This will be a que for somebody to say I need to learn to use one no doubt. But a big bait like that cast into the wind is a problem for bigger size multiplier reels. The type you would need for bigger species.

I'm not so sure any type of swivel works on line twist though. Even the best so called "ball bearing" type. Put a hundred metres of line out with a good twist in it. Hold the swivel and get someone to pull the line tight and the swivel does nothing. Even with 10 metres out it still doesn't move the swivel. I have tried this so I'm pretty sure that doesn't work. It certainly makes no difference with a fixed spool reel. Eventually the line twist gets to be a problem. All I see swivels ever being is as a line connector.
The only way I have ever got twist out of a line is to let it all out behind your boat for a while or if on land walk through a grassy field with it out and dragging it behind you. Even then that only partially works.
You could live with that though as the reel is such a simple efficient and robust design.