Braid and Multiplier

[DoZZa]

I know this has been covered before but I would still like some more info on the subject.

I have been using 30lb Berkley Fireline on my mag elite for a while now, not been having any problems, until yesterday. Had 2 over runs.

What I want to know is what diameter braid is best for a mag elite? I have tried thinner 20lb braid but i find this digs into the line on the spool, so when you cast it catches and causes a lovely birdy.


Would a more erratic line lay sort it? I say this because braid works fine on a fixed spool, but I think this is due to the way the line is layed by the FS reels.

Any help or ideas are appreciated.

Cheers

DoZZa

[Rajabatis]

Most folks load their Mag Elite with 15lb mono. Dia approx 0.35mm You need to get a braid the same diameter. Your 30lb stuff is as thin as 8-10lb mono. You have a lot more of it on the reel with that bs braid. The over run is because it is not pulling off enough line to lower the line depth on the spool. The spool is feeding line faster than it is coming off. A thicker braid will sort it. That and put some EP80 or 90 gear oil in the bearings and dial in a bit more mag.
If you lay the line with your thumb in a more exaggerated criss cross that will help prevent the line digging in to itself. Maybe that was the reason you had the over run? If the line was dug in down in the spool, then suddenly freed the spool would jerk slow down then speed up rapidly causing the tangle.
Hope that helps

[ask wingbacker]

15lb line is 0.35mm dia NOT 0.035mm.............!!!!!!!

[Rajabatis]

15lb line is 0.35mm dia NOT 0.035mm.............!!!!!!!
Wheesh got to be carefull not to put a foot wrong on this forum!
Yes sorry quite correct THANKS FOR POINTING OUT MY TYPO were you okay with the rest of my reply AB?

[lobbit]

15lb line is 0.35mm dia NOT 0.035mm.............!!!!!!!
:idea:
generally speaking of course line thickness varies a bit dont yah know ,,,,
sorry im on the phone what i cant hear you

:clap2: :clap2: :clap2: :)

[ask wingbacker]

A reel that holds 220m of 0.35mmm will hold 22km of 0.035mm line that's some typo...hahahahaha:giveup: :giveup: sorry for pointing that out will not happen again
Wingbacker

[philtherod]

I've used the same 30lb braid for several years, it is 0.30mm diameter, which in monofilament equates to 10-12lb B.S., quite acceptable on a 6500 size reel.
I run my reel(abu 6500CT Rocket Mk II) tighter than I would with monofil to ensure I don'r have any problems with over-runs.

philtherod

[Rajabatis]

:idea:
generally speaking of course line thickness varies a bit dont yah know ,,,,
sorry im on the phone what i cant hear you

:clap2: :clap2: :clap2: :)
Yes but not a lot. A line that is marked at a certain diameter. Say 0.35mm will be pretty much as stated if it is from a reputable manufacturer. Were there is lots of incorrect info is when breaking strain is stated. Some manufacurers state 15LBs breaking strain when it is actually more, 18lbs plus. It is more rare for it to be less than the stated breaking strain. See this interesting link if you are interested in lines.
http://www.anglersnet.co.uk/authors/dave02.htm
It is pretty good reading.

[Rajabatis]

:idea:
generally speaking of course line thickness varies a bit dont yah know ,,,,
sorry im on the phone what i cant hear you

:clap2: :clap2: :clap2: :)
If you read the post that replied to DoZZas question again lobbit I did say
" Dia approx" in the post. Which means therabouts. Indicating there is a variation.

"Most folks load their Mag Elite with 15lb mono. Dia approx 0.35mm You need to get a braid the same diameter. Your 30lb stuff is as thin as 8-10lb mono. You have a lot more of it on the reel with that bs braid. The over run is because it is not pulling off enough line to lower the line depth on the spool. The spool is feeding line faster than it is coming off. A thicker braid will sort it. That and put some EP80 or 90 gear oil in the bearings and dial in a bit more mag.
Hope that helps"

[Ravelling Tangler]

yup, I too would recommend braid of about 0.30mm (now that tighter-weave braids are around - you' better check the listed diameter rather than just look for a prticular b.s.)
Having said that I've dicovered that the Penn 525 Mag Extra (the latest slidy) with the extra two magnets inserted is so docile that I am quite happy using 0.25mm Daiwa Tournament Accudepth on it.

I think you may find criss-crossing the line as you lay it (which is what helps prevent it digging in on Fixed spool reels) does not seem to help much with a multiplier - better just to make sure there is enough pressure (adding grip between finger & thumb, if not much strain on the line outside the rod tip) as winding it back on.

IF you still get problems, consider having a "topshot" of 0.35-to 0.40 mono ...about 30 or 40 yards of it... between the top end of your braid and the shock leader. Any bad birdsnests are likely to be on that, but there is still not so much that the stretch takes away all the "feel" advantage of braid at distance

[smoothound54]

mines so old its 0.01378 inches (steady - braid that is!)

[Rajabatis]

"I think you may find criss-crossing the line as you lay it (which is what helps prevent it digging in on Fixed spool reels) does not seem to help much with a multiplier - better just to make sure there is enough pressure (adding grip between finger & thumb, if not much strain on the line outside the rod tip) as winding it back on."

Not in my experience RT. Close tight winding is asking for the braid to dig into itself no matter how firmly you wind it on. A good cross wrap line lay is essential.
How if it prevents digging in on a fixed spool does it not do the same on a multiplier?

[philtherod]

IF you still get problems, consider having a "topshot" of 0.35-to 0.40 mono ...about 30 or 40 yards of it... between the top end of your braid and the shock leader. Any bad birdsnests are likely to be on that, but there is still not so much that the stretch takes away all the "feel" advantage of braid at distance

This problem can be directly attributed to having rod rings that are too heavy for the blank...size 12 BNHGs close together with a whacking great Diamite tip ring is a recipe for disaster, as the weight causes the rod tip to overshoot, pulling line off the reel that the lead cannot take up.

Don't believe me? Ask Terry Carroll, he's the man who told me!!! You can see this on the "Cod" video where I'm talking to Terry. Thats why I recommend the rings that I do.

philtherod

[Rajabatis]

This problem can be directly attributed to having rod rings that are too heavy for the blank...size 12 BNHGs close together with a whacking great Diamite tip ring is a recipe for disaster, as the weight causes the rod tip to overshoot, pulling line off the reel that the lead cannot take up.

Don't believe me? Ask Terry Carroll, he's the man who told me!!! You can see this on the "Cod" video where I'm talking to Terry. Thats why I recommend the rings that I do.

philtherod
Should that not read "one of the problems" Phil. I understand the extra mass at the top of the rod causing a dip and subsequent reduction in the speed of the line through that part of the rod, The line following it at that point is momenteraly backing up with nowhere to go." There are other factors though coming into play with braid surely? Digging in is a common problem with braid that is not wound on properly or tightly enough. This is a big factor in causing spool speed fluctuations, don't you agree?
I've not seen that video. What guides did you reccomend? Personally I think it was a backward step from the lightweight hard chrome rings that Hopkins and Holloway used to make to the ceramic centred type that seem to be on all beach rods these days. Certainly if the rod got dropped accidently it wasn't the disaster it can be now.

[philtherod]

Funny you should mention that - I was one of the casters who had two of the prototype Carroll & Forrest Developments CFD674 blanks from 1974. Thought I would "update" one of the rods, and fitted a set of Fuji BNHGs. The excessive weight of the rings destroyed the crispness of the blank. I have sorted out a set of Sapphrite Laurels Harchrome rings, and am in the process of stripping the blank and rebuilding, to get the rod back to 1974 spec. I picked up an example of the production rod that the prototypes were used to develop, the Milbro "Terry Carroll 675 SURF", which was the first production rod with the then new Fuji BSHG rings. It is history now, but it will be interesting to compare the performance of these two old warhorses. The video is "COD" which you should be able to get from Tonys Tackle, Eastbourne, or LDTV.

philtherod

[Ravelling Tangler]

"I think you may find criss-crossing the line as you lay it (which is what helps prevent it digging in on Fixed spool reels) does not seem to help much with a multiplier - better just to make sure there is enough pressure (adding grip between finger & thumb, if not much strain on the line outside the rod tip) as winding it back on."

Not in my experience RT. Close tight winding is asking for the braid to dig into itself no matter how firmly you wind it on. A good cross wrap line lay is essential.
How if it prevents digging in on a fixed spool does it not do the same on a multiplier?

INTERESTING ! it is my experience, and I can't explain it - which "bugs" me.
I can see that criss-crossing could leave a gap between coils but since it should not be too much of the circumference of the spool it ought not to let tight line "dig in" ...or is that wrong ?

Most quality modern fixed-spools wind a different number of turns from front of spool to back than from back to front (I think Shimano started this and called it "Aero wrap")

Do you take the line more quickly across the multiplier spool from left to right than back from right to left (or vice versa) ?
Or do you take it 'rapidly' across in either direction every now and then . . . and then do a few layers of "cotton reel" style side-by-side winding ?

Do you only have a hundred metres of braid on your multiplier or is it mostly filled with braid ?

I do fill big game reels under great strain (I can't wind the line on in high gear, because of the drag I put on the braid ) and do close touching turns (which helps get more on the reel than criss-crossing)....but that's a different matter.

[Rajabatis]

INTERESTING ! it is my experience, and I can't explain it - which "bugs" me.
I can see that criss-crossing could leave a gap between coils but since it should not be too much of the circumference of the spool it ought not to let tight line "dig in" ...or is that wrong ?

Most quality modern fixed-spools wind a different number of turns from front of spool to back than from back to front (I think Shimano started this and called it "Aero wrap")

Do you take the line more quickly across the multiplier spool from left to right than back from right to left (or vice versa) ?
Or do you take it 'rapidly' across in either direction every now and then . . . and then do a few layers of "cotton reel" style side-by-side winding ?

Do you only have a hundred metres of braid on your multiplier or is it mostly filled with braid ?

I do fill big game reels under great strain (I can't wind the line on in high gear, because of the drag I put on the braid ) and do close touching turns (which helps get more on the reel than criss-crossing)....but that's a different matter.
INTERESTING ! it is my experience, and I can't explain it - which "bugs" me.
I can see that criss-crossing could leave a gap between coils but since it should not be too much of the circumference of the spool it ought not to let tight line "dig in" ...or is that wrong ?

Hi I'm not quite sure what you mean here RT " should not be too much of the circumference."? All I know is when I forget to put a nice criss cross wind in with the line, say when your distracted by landing a fish. The next time you go to cast and the line has been wound in tight touching turns like on a reel of thread. The line digs into the coils and causes problems. I was always taught and read in magazine articles and books to do a good cross over lay of line to stop it digging in. That was back in the days before super braids were ever thought off. Although I did only use mono for casting then. Braided terylene (not sure on the spelling of that) or braided dacron was all I used for boat angling and layered that on in the same criss cross way. Everyone has their own ideas on it. This way works best for me.

Regarding how much to put on. For a 100yrd/mtrs cast you need to take account of the trajectory of the lead/bait through the air. So it does use more that 100 yds/mtrs you do need a lot more than 100yds/mtrs on the spool. Err on the safe side, about 150 and you have enough. Plus a bed of mono to build the spool up to get your braid at the correct level on the reel. This also helps the braid to sit better on the spool. Dig ins are less of a problem if you don't use braid to fill the spool completely. Long range casters who can get a lead and bait out a long way, would of course need a lot more braid though.

Here is another illustration of braid digging in - I do a fair bit of Bonefishing with the fly. Braid is a no no as a flyline backing. The stuff has very little stretch and when a fish has ran off over a 100yds of flyline and backing and then turns and runs towards you at 25mph. You just don't have time to layer the line back on. Braid just build up and snags on itself - next time a fish runs off a lot off line they can and do break off. I only use stretchy Micron as do most other Bonefish fly anglers. Micron is used because of it's low diameter, which means you can get a lot on the reel and because of the stretch it lies on the fly reel spool better.
Even with that stretchy braid my routine once the fish is landed, is to run out the line and wind it back on neatly with a nice criss cross. You can then relax and not be worrying about backing line snarl ups next time you are lucky enough to get a hook up.

Yes I think it was Shimano that came up with the Aero wrap name but Mitchel the french reel makers had a similar line lay system on some of their reels long before Shimano.
The so called "aero wrap" doesn't change the number of turns of line on the spool. What it does do, is change the speed the spool moves in and out and that varying motion changes the line lay at different points. One layer with fairly tight close layering. The next with a wider cross over and so on.

[Ravelling Tangler]

I'm wondering what I'm doing "right" - I use a 525 Mag Xtra and a 5500CTMag Elite with (in both cases) 0.30 mm superbraid (300metres on each) and I am not getting problems.
I changed over from criss-crossing when I read it criticised as a cause of trouble (with big fish, pulling hard, rather than during casting) by the Long Range anglers (I also have "30" and "50" class reels mainly filled with superbraid, for long-running fish when there may be some delay before the boat can chase them).

Nice that the stretchy nature of Micron (dacron) can prevent it building up on one side of your fly spool while you are winding in a hurry. That is worth knowing for anyone who fishes for fast running fish with either a fly reel or a centre-pin.

[Rajabatis]

I'm wondering what I'm doing "right" - I use a 525 Mag Xtra and a 5500CTMag Elite with (in both cases) 0.30 mm superbraid (300metres on each) and I am not getting problems.
I changed over from criss-crossing when I read it criticised as a cause of trouble (with big fish, pulling hard, rather than during casting) by the Long Range anglers (I also have "30" and "50" class reels mainly filled with superbraid, for long-running fish when there may be some delay before the boat can chase them).

Nice that the stretchy nature of Micron (dacron) can prevent it building up on one side of your fly spool while you are winding in a hurry. That is worth knowing for anyone who fishes for fast running fish with either a fly reel or a centre-pin.

"Nice that the stretchy nature of Micron (dacron) can prevent it building up on one side of your fly spool while you are winding in a hurry. That is worth knowing for anyone who fishes for fast running fish with either a fly reel or a centre-pin."

I think you are putting words in my mouth here RT. I didn't claim any properties of that nature regarding build up prevention for micron on my fly reels. From my experience of it's use though the stretch of that type of braid lets it sit better when loose wound on the spool and prevents the fall over that you experience with "non" stretchy super braids.
As I said for all my comments. "This is my experience." This way works for me. If you are getting on with the way you do it, that's great. Stick with it.