View Full Version : The Magical Secret to Casting Further
The Penetrator
07-02-2007, 19:28
The Magical Secret to Casting Further:
Get casting lessons from an instructor.
That is all you need to know.
Is there a story to tell? :secret:
The Penetrator
07-02-2007, 20:08
Is there a story to tell? :secret:
I doubled my distance within 3 or 4 lessons.
It had nothing to do with type of cast, it had nothing to do with effort, it had nothing to do with rod, it had nothing to do with reel, it had nothing to do with strength, it had nothing to do with weather, it had nothing to do with being on a field.
It was 100% down to a bad technique that the instructor put right. I use much less effort than before too.
My PB is now 207yds over grass (using OTG method) which is probably 120yds further than I was casting. This coming casting year I expect to be at least 20yds past that. I use a normal off the shelf rod and reel with no mods other than 1 magnet out of my reel so I only have 3. I still regard my self as a learner and have a lot more to learn and achieve.
Any able bodied person has the ability to cast 200yds on a field, It's all down to technique.
Now my cast is safer, goes further (if required) and is better for my bait.
After a while you actually enjoy casting just for the fun of it. Sounds daft to some (It did to me) but it becomes a personal battle. I only wanted to improve my cast for fishing, now casting is another sport all together for me. It is very addictive and anybody can do it and see instant benefits.
The magical secret was casting lessons from an experienced surf casting instructor.
oldchukka
07-02-2007, 20:14
who gave you tuition?
The Penetrator
07-02-2007, 20:19
who gave you tuition?
Andy Miller Led Chukka
What tweaks did you make to your technique and what were you doing wrong?
Im trying to get more out of my OTG (7HT up on a supercast 13pm, 9ft drop) and seem to be consistently bottoming out at 150 paces.
Ok, Im only 5ft 9inches tall and not built like a brick out house but I should be able to get more than I do.
The Penetrator
07-02-2007, 20:45
What tweaks did you make to your technique and what were you doing wrong?
Im trying to get more out of my OTG (7HT up on a supercast 13pm, 9ft drop) and seem to be consistently bottoming out at 150 paces.
Ok, Im only 5ft 9inches tall and not built like a brick out house but I should be able to get more than I do.
I'm same height as you mate and was using a supercast 13pm for my first few lessons. Size is irrelevant u
My main faults were 'cutting the corner' and not keeping a straight left arm before the 'punch-pull'. this is still a problem but to a much lesser degree. I had no idea what cutting the corner was or couldn't appreciate how much it affects your cast.
OTG is the way forward though. Leave pendulum well alone until your OTG is sorted.
I'm no expert mate, still learning. My best bit of advice is get some lessons. It'll save you hours of time and probably money too.
talking about size andy green is only 5ft 6/7 weight 10 1/2 stone and cast over 300yrds .with casting you need to get the lead in right position first turn slow keeping your left arm straight and looking where you wont to cast try to develop a style before you add the power learn otg first this helps you learn where your arms and head should be ,timming is down to the person you cant show timming that is trial and error
and me in size im 5ft 8/9 weight 13 stone and ive backcast 249 yrds
ive also pendulum cast over 260
andy is a very good casting instructor and casts for england
The first thing to help your casting is admit to yourself that you need help
Then go out and seek the help.
even seasoned casters turn to others for help .
I can cast a good way but i am still looking for more yards as a casting instructor
who do i ask ???
My fellow casters and instructors as they see little things that you can not feel...
i smell crab paste:):cool:
I openly admit that my casting could be better, my problem is finding an instructor. There just don't seem to be any in Aberdeen, I'd have to drive to Glasgow which is 4hrs away to see one....So you can see my problem
Ian_Montrose
08-02-2007, 09:42
I openly admit that my casting could be better, my problem is finding an instructor. There just don't seem to be any in Aberdeen, I'd have to drive to Glasgow which is 4hrs away to see one....So you can see my problem
Who do you know that coaches out of Glasgow, BigAds?
I've got the same problem bigads. Maybe if we could a few guys up here interested we could all chip in and get one of the guys from the SW to come up here for a day to sort us out.
That could be a good idear
try for a weekend one of you put him up take him fishing or the pub at night
pay his petrol i am sure one of the instructors would take up a offer like that
I know i would good luck with it if you go that way..
DoubleShotDamo
08-02-2007, 13:13
Most long distance casters are big guys. There are always going to be a few that don't fit the mould, but generally they are burly guys. :showoff:
The Penetrator
08-02-2007, 13:42
Most long distance casters are big guys. There are always going to be a few that don't fit the mould, but generally they are burly guys. :showoff:
You're missing the point by a mile fella. You're talking about the worlds elite there and it's still probably wrong. I'm talking about the average person.
Any able bodied person that can follow simple instruction has the potential to hit 200 yards on a field, no matter what size you are. 200 yards is a very long way.
One of the worlds best casters is Tony Jones, he's 5ft 5" in high heels. Steve Morris is a similar height to me but probably a couple of stone lighter, he's another England international just like Tony.
Technique is by far the biggest factor and I'll bet my Synchro, CME, Profile, C3LD and Pro-Am on that. I'll even chuck in my reels. Physical size may account for 5 - 10 % once you're at 250 yds.
The fastest, safest, cheapest way to gain the technique is from an instructor.
DoubleShotDamo
08-02-2007, 15:18
You're missing the point by a mile fella. You're talking about the worlds elite there and it's still probably wrong. I'm talking about the average person.
Any able bodied person that can follow simple instruction has the potential to hit 200 yards on a field, no matter what size you are. 200 yards is a very long way.
One of the worlds best casters is Tony Jones, he's 5ft 5" in high heels. Steve Morris is a similar height to me but probably a couple of stone lighter, he's another England international just like Tony.
Technique is by far the biggest factor and I'll bet my Synchro, CME, Profile, C3LD and Pro-Am on that. I'll even chuck in my reels. Physical size may account for 5 - 10 % once you're at 250 yds.
The fastest, safest, cheapest way to gain the technique is from an instructor.
I totally agree mate, technique is the most important thing. I was talking about top casters past and present; they have technique and physique; Mackellow, Moeskopps, Wright, Riseborough, Kelland, Kerry etc etc. The average man is capable of 200 yards with practice, by technique or by brute force. The advances in rod technology is to thank for that. I agree that the further you cast, the more technique will play a part, along with tinkering with magnets, oils, thinner lines etc etc. By the way, how many casts on average do top casters have stay attached during a tournamnet? 50% 30%??? Tournament casting and long range shore fishing are totally different things.
Ian_Montrose
08-02-2007, 16:18
The average man is capable of 200 yards........The advances in rod technology is to thank for that.
I would think that the advances in rod technology have probably been driven more by the demands of competitive casters than by those of regular fishermen. So just as everyday drivers eventually benefit from R&D initiated by formula1 and other motor sports us ordinary lead chuckers probably owe the tournament casters more than we realise.
Just a thought.
The Penetrator
08-02-2007, 16:27
I totally agree mate, technique is the most important thing. I was talking about top casters past and present; they have technique and physique; Mackellow, Moeskopps, Wright, Riseborough, Kelland, Kerry etc etc. The average man is capable of 200 yards with practice, by technique or by brute force. The advances in rod technology is to thank for that. I agree that the further you cast, the more technique will play a part, along with tinkering with magnets, oils, thinner lines etc etc. By the way, how many casts on average do top casters have stay attached during a tournamnet? 50% 30%??? Tournament casting and long range shore fishing are totally different things.
1st of all, This has nothing to do with casting vs fishing.
I'm not going to waste my time discussing that BS. There are a million and 1 threads about that on here. If it goes down that road then I'll be proper ****ed off. This thread is about improving your casting and it's in the casting forum.
If you decide to use your improved technique on the beach like I do, then all the power to you. It's not a debate about how relevant it is to fishing, I'm trying to help people to improve their casting. I personally think it's 100% relevant to fishing, but I'm not debating that here.
Start a new thread for that, but it's been done to the death as far as I'm concerned.
What separates mere mortals from the elite is totally irrelevant to this discussion. It deserves a thread of its own.
An elite caster by definition knows how to cast, someone stuck at 80yds doesn't. Oils, magnets, rods etc etc are what separate the elite, not mere mortals. Technique separates mere mortals, it is the biggest improvement you will will ever make and it has nothing to do with equipment or power.
Rod technology advances have nothing to do with distance, that's insulting to the likes of Kerry and Mackellow.
Mackellows records were set using rods that are considered soft nowadays, much softer than a CME for example. These rods will still cast 250yds+ in the right hands.
A friend of mine can cast further than most people using an army land rover aerial, rod technology is irrelevant to distance for normal folk.
This thread is about casting, not shore fishing, but the technique I use on the field is exactly the same as what I use on the beach for fishing.
My rods and reels are unmodified fishing equipment, factory CME and Mag Elite with 1 mag out.
The average man will never cast 200yds with brute force alone.
The average man will never cast 200yds practising a bad technique,
he won't suddenly defy the laws of physics because he's put the time in.
I was using as much force casting 70 - 80 yds as I use now for 200 yds. I probably use a lot less now thinking about it.
Too much power at the wrong time is a bad thing. It will rob you of distance. Much like driving a car too fast round a corner, you will suffer.
Technique teaches you how to apply the force.
"Power is nothing without control" or so they say on telly.
Casting has more to do with primary school mathematics than power, believe it or not.
Q: What moves faster ?
A point on a bicycle wheels hub or a point on a bicycle wheels tyre ?
A: Point on the Tyre. It covers a much greater distance in the same amount of time as the hub. So it must be travelling faster.
1) Find a compass and draw an arc on a piece of paper.
2) Imagine that pencil line is your rod tip travelling around you when you cast.
3) Technique teaches you how to make the lead follow the rod tip arc. A bad technique will have the lead well inside the arc, an excellent technique will have it just outside the arc.
4) The greater the sinker arc the faster the sinker speed. (just like the hub and tyre scenario)
5) If your lead is well inside the arc, now you can see why it doesn't go very far when you complete the cast. (It hasn't got as much energy as it should have)
6) The faster the sinker speed, the further your cast will go. It has more energy.
Your rod, sinker and length of leader do the work for you, it has nothing to do with power. It's about leverage.
Power will help you go slightly further, but only if it's used at the correct time and in the right place.
Technique and timing teaches you when and where to apply the power.
If you use the lever (rod) in an inefficient manner, no matter how strong you are, the resulting action is still inefficient.
i.e. You have 2 men, 1 strong, 1 weak. And a big rock and a small rock. And a wooden post.
Strong man tries to move big rock but it doesn't budge.
Weak man uses his head and applies the technique he was taught at rock moving college, he moves the small rock next to the big rock, grabs the wooden post and places it between the two rocks and by leverage he moves the big rock.
Who moved the big rock ? Big Gripper or Weak Geek
Why did he move it, because he used his head or his strength ?
Lessons will teach you how to use the lever in an efficient way.
Can you see the point of the 1st post yet ?
All you need to know is get some casting lessons, that is the secret to distance.
Casting lessons will teach you how best to use the lever (rod) to your advantage.
Size and power have nothing at all to do with being able to cast 200 yds. If I can do it, I'm sure most people can.
THE penatrator has hit the nail squarely on the head:notworthy :notworthy :notworthy :notworthy
technique is the way forward for anyone who wants to cast further
i for one am indebted to my m8 and instructor purgalas pete
and as he says when applying the correct technique castig with less power to achive the same or bigger distances may means safer less injury prone casting
nice one m8
smiithy1
08-02-2007, 17:27
how much does catsing lesson cost as im intrested in getting a few extra yards
smiithy1
08-02-2007, 17:45
thanks mate will give him a ring
The Penetrator
08-02-2007, 17:58
Something very funny I've just remembered about my first casting lesson.
The night before my lesson I got proper lashed up on the Black stuff after seeing an old mate from the Army. I was taking my turn giving him a piggy back on the way back from the cruiser when I tripped up and smashed my head on the pavement.
Anyway, the next morning I was too drunk to drive, had double vision and the shakes so I decided to call Led Chukka to say I couldn't make it. My mate said that was a bit sh**ty of me and that he'd drive me to Led's casting field about 30 miles away or so. On the way there my mate had to stop the car twice on the A1 so I could empty the contents of my stomach, I was shaking and in pieces with a nasty cut on my eye brow and stinking of beer, you could say that I'd seen better days.
We got to the field, I made my apologies to Led for being late and stinking. I then cracked on with my 1st lesson. I'm sure to this day that had I not gone to that 1st lesson, I'd still be swinging my lead like a lunatic and getting no further than 80 yards. So thanks to Led and my mate I'm a half decent chukka myself now, at least much better than I was. In to the bargain I've met and cast with some of the worlds best and made some good friends.
My mate even filmed my first casting lesson if anyone wishes to see just how basic I was.
as for cost most instructers i know dont charge just go to your nearst event and ask for help
or if you want one on one you may have to travel where they practice
also rememder most tourny casters spend hrs and hrs practicing to perfect there timing
danny was asked how often do you practice he replied not as much as i used to i used to practice every day and i did that for 2 yrs
with the ridht instruction every can cast over 200
richard allen has cast over 210yrds from a wheelchair otg he now has an implant in his groin that enables him to walk and has pendulum over 270 i think if not its not far off
200 yards OTG is a bloody long way. Id be absolutely delighted with 150 yards.
I agree with the above comments about the lead having to travel faster if it stays on that outside arc as opposed to cutting the corner. Does this imply that to cast further a longer drop is required in order to create an even wider arc for the lead to travel on?
I've never really tried longer than an 8-10ft drop fishing the reel up on a 13ft rod.
A lot of the lads on the Holderness site swear by big dave as a casting instructor, I shall be booking a lesson when Im fit enough.
if its the same dav that i know he,s learning to backcast aswell
The Penetrator
08-02-2007, 19:48
200 yards OTG is a bloody long way. Id be absolutely delighted with 150 yards.
I agree with the above comments about the lead having to travel faster if it stays on that outside arc as opposed to cutting the corner. Does this imply that to cast further a longer drop is required in order to create an even wider arc for the lead to travel on?
I've never really tried longer than an 8-10ft drop fishing the reel up on a 13ft rod.
A lot of the lads on the Holderness site swear by big dave as a casting instructor, I shall be booking a lesson when Im fit enough.
I don't really want to go down the road of explaining technique, I'm still a beginner myself.
A proper instructor will be able to explain and demonstrate far better than I can.
What I do know is that an OTG drop is shorter than a pendulum drop and 8ft sounds about right. I use the butt ring as a guide myself. Try experimenting with it, some things might suit your rod better.
HI Ian yes i am the one and same dave
I am down with flu at the mo but will be having a crack at that backcast as i feel you have to learn somthing to teach it if i strugle with it I am lucky as i get to cast
with one of the best backcasters of all time Dave Vickery and i know i can alway ask you for help IAN..
DAVE....
philtherod
08-02-2007, 20:30
The secret with the OTG cast is the length of the drop that you use. If you are a complete beginner, use half the rod length, and also half the power you think you are going to need, use a solid stance at 45 degrees to the direction you want to cast, and try with the lead away from you, and near to you, to see which method suits you. After half-a-dozen casts, ALL THE SAME, you will start to get the "feel" of the rod. Ask yourself, does the rod feel:
a) stiff? b) soft? ONLY YOU CAN DECIDE, no-one else can do this for you. If after these half-dozen casts you think the rod is stiff, lengthen the drop to the lead by 6", and the rod will feel softer. If however the rod feels soft to you, then shorten the drop by the same 6" and it will make the rod feel stiffer. The point to note, is that the rod has not changed, what has changed is the time that the lead stays within the arc of the rod. A couple of hundred words for something a good instructor can show in a few minutes.
philtherod
i,ll help you all i can dav but dav vicary is with out dought the best backcaster and you see him more then you see me .but i,ll help as much as i can if you can watch the vid clips in slow mo
im hoping to get up to anglia event some time this yr not sure when tho as its about 5 1/2 to 6 hrs drive each way
AndrewJS
08-02-2007, 20:37
As a casting mate of The Penetrator I thought I'd better add my experiences of casting lessons: Before I had a lesson I'd been fishing for over 30 years and was stuck on 160 yards. I used to read rod adverts that "guaranteed " me 250 yds plus and I'd practice like mad on my mate's farm.
My instructor (Led) taught me a proper OTG cast and I became obsessed with it for nearly 12 months! I've only just moved onto low pendulum now. In this time I took my OTG to 217m.
What I've noticed the most is how easy it is to cast now with any rod. It seems effortless. I now also know what type of rod action I like.
I work as a tree surgeon so have good upper body strength but that meant nothing before I learnt proper technique.
I haven't caught any more fish as a result of my long casting but I've always got the option to hit it!:)
DoubleShotDamo
08-02-2007, 21:24
1st of all, This has nothing to do with casting vs fishing.
I'm not going to waste my time discussing that BS. There are a million and 1 threads about that on here. If it goes down that road then I'll be proper ****ed off. This thread is about improving your casting and it's in the casting forum.
If you decide to use your improved technique on the beach like I do, then all the power to you. It's not a debate about how relevant it is to fishing, I'm trying to help people to improve their casting. I personally think it's 100% relevant to fishing, but I'm not debating that here.
Start a new thread for that, but it's been done to the death as far as I'm concerned.
What separates mere mortals from the elite is totally irrelevant to this discussion. It deserves a thread of its own.
An elite caster by definition knows how to cast, someone stuck at 80yds doesn't. Oils, magnets, rods etc etc are what separate the elite, not mere mortals. Technique separates mere mortals, it is the biggest improvement you will will ever make and it has nothing to do with equipment or power.
Rod technology advances have nothing to do with distance, that's insulting to the likes of Kerry and Mackellow.
Mackellows records were set using rods that are considered soft nowadays, much softer than a CME for example. These rods will still cast 250yds+ in the right hands.
A friend of mine can cast further than most people using an army land rover aerial, rod technology is irrelevant to distance for normal folk.
This thread is about casting, not shore fishing, but the technique I use on the field is exactly the same as what I use on the beach for fishing.
My rods and reels are unmodified fishing equipment, factory CME and Mag Elite with 1 mag out.
The average man will never cast 200yds with brute force alone.
The average man will never cast 200yds practising a bad technique,
he won't suddenly defy the laws of physics because he's put the time in.
I was using as much force casting 70 - 80 yds as I use now for 200 yds. I probably use a lot less now thinking about it.
Too much power at the wrong time is a bad thing. It will rob you of distance. Much like driving a car too fast round a corner, you will suffer.
Technique teaches you how to apply the force.
"Power is nothing without control"
Casting has more to do with primary school mathematics than power, believe it or not.
Q: What moves faster ?
A point on a bicycle wheels hub or a point on a bicycle wheels tyre ?
A: Point on the Tyre. It covers a much greater distance in the same amount of time as the hub. So it must be travelling faster.
1) Find a compass and draw an arc on a piece of paper.
2) Imagine that pencil line is your sinker travelling around you when you cast.
3) Technique teaches you how to make that arc bigger and more efficient.
4) The bigger the arc the faster the sinker speed. (just like the hub and tyre scenario)
The bigger the sinker speed, the further your cast will go. It has more energy.
Your rod, sinker and length of leader do the work for you, it has nothing to do with power. It's about leverage.
If you use the lever (rod) in an inefficient manner, no matter how strong you are, the resulting action is still inefficient.
i.e. You have 2 men, 1 strong, 1 weak. And a big rock and a small rock. And a wooden post.
Strong man tries to move big rock but it doesn't budge.
Weak man uses his head and applies the technique he was taught at rock moving college, he moves the small rock next to the big rock, grabs the wooden post and places it between the two rocks and by leverage he moves the big rock.
Who moved the big rock ? Big Gripper or Weak Geek
Why did he move it, because he used his head or his strength ?
Lessons will teach you how to use the lever in an efficient way.
Can you see the point of the 1st post yet ?
All you need to know is get some casting lessons, that is the secret to distance.
Casting lessons will teach you how best to use the lever (rod) to your advantage.
Size and power have nothing at all to do with being able to cast 200 yds. If I can do it, I'm sure most people can.
Mate, you are writing like you are p!ssed off! I am not going to turn this thread into a casting vs fishing debate. Nor am I going to disrespect the old greats, and neither am I going to talk about moving rocks!
I have to disagree with you about rod technology. Mackellow broke all the records with a Zziplex Quattra Sport. The rod was a top rod at the time. The world record stood for many many years. His technique was and is faultless. If you had given him a crap rod at the time, say a solid glass 11' beach rod, he would not have cast the same distances, good style or not. The gear HAS to be capable of doing the business in the first place. Nowadays you can pick up a new rod for 150 quid, and cast 200 yards. I agree, give a top rod to a plonker and he won't cast far. Give him lessons, and he will. Give him lessons with a 30 quid combo special, and he ain't going to cast 200!
I was casting over 200 yards through practice, reading Sea Angler mag when it was heavily into casting articles and talking to people. I have cast with an instructor, and was beating him every cast! That was three years ago. I haven't cast properly since due to commitments. And he said if only I cast UP and not to the horizon like an angler, I would add 30 yards. Nice, I would be up there with the big boys then!! But I have a Zziplex Zero Plus, and have been advised by competent, well known casters, that it would be capable of chucking 250 ish. Well, I've done that. So where to now?? New rod? Or tweak my cast? I would opt for the tweaks as my technique is not bad, just a few things (like looking up) to sort out. So I do agree with you about technique. But I am a mortal and cast well over 200 yards without the tuition, so others CAN hit 200 with practice, a capable rod and an ok style. :)
pigeon ian
08-02-2007, 21:32
1st of all, This has nothing to do with casting vs fishing.
I'm not going to waste my time discussing that BS. There are a million and 1 threads about that on here. If it goes down that road then I'll be proper ****ed off. This thread is about improving your casting and it's in the casting forum.
If you decide to use your improved technique on the beach like I do, then all the power to you. It's not a debate about how relevant it is to fishing, I'm trying to help people to improve their casting. I personally think it's 100% relevant to fishing, but I'm not debating that here.
Start a new thread for that, but it's been done to the death as far as I'm concerned.
What separates mere mortals from the elite is totally irrelevant to this discussion. It deserves a thread of its own.
An elite caster by definition knows how to cast, someone stuck at 80yds doesn't. Oils, magnets, rods etc etc are what separate the elite, not mere mortals. Technique separates mere mortals, it is the biggest improvement you will will ever make and it has nothing to do with equipment or power.
Rod technology advances have nothing to do with distance, that's insulting to the likes of Kerry and Mackellow.
Mackellows records were set using rods that are considered soft nowadays, much softer than a CME for example. These rods will still cast 250yds+ in the right hands.
A friend of mine can cast further than most people using an army land rover aerial, rod technology is irrelevant to distance for normal folk.
This thread is about casting, not shore fishing, but the technique I use on the field is exactly the same as what I use on the beach for fishing.
My rods and reels are unmodified fishing equipment, factory CME and Mag Elite with 1 mag out.
The average man will never cast 200yds with brute force alone.
The average man will never cast 200yds practising a bad technique,
he won't suddenly defy the laws of physics because he's put the time in.
I was using as much force casting 70 - 80 yds as I use now for 200 yds. I probably use a lot less now thinking about it.
Too much power at the wrong time is a bad thing. It will rob you of distance. Much like driving a car too fast round a corner, you will suffer.
Technique teaches you how to apply the force.
"Power is nothing without control"
Casting has more to do with primary school mathematics than power, believe it or not.
Q: What moves faster ?
A point on a bicycle wheels hub or a point on a bicycle wheels tyre ?
A: Point on the Tyre. It covers a much greater distance in the same amount of time as the hub. So it must be travelling faster.
1) Find a compass and draw an arc on a piece of paper.
2) Imagine that pencil line is your sinker travelling around you when you cast.
3) Technique teaches you how to make that arc bigger and more efficient.
4) The bigger the arc the faster the sinker speed. (just like the hub and tyre scenario)
The bigger the sinker speed, the further your cast will go. It has more energy.
Your rod, sinker and length of leader do the work for you, it has nothing to do with power. It's about leverage.
If you use the lever (rod) in an inefficient manner, no matter how strong you are, the resulting action is still inefficient.
i.e. You have 2 men, 1 strong, 1 weak. And a big rock and a small rock. And a wooden post.
Strong man tries to move big rock but it doesn't budge.
Weak man uses his head and applies the technique he was taught at rock moving college, he moves the small rock next to the big rock, grabs the wooden post and places it between the two rocks and by leverage he moves the big rock.
Who moved the big rock ? Big Gripper or Weak Geek
Why did he move it, because he used his head or his strength ?
Lessons will teach you how to use the lever in an efficient way.
Can you see the point of the 1st post yet ?
All you need to know is get some casting lessons, that is the secret to distance.
Casting lessons will teach you how best to use the lever (rod) to your advantage.
Size and power have nothing at all to do with being able to cast 200 yds. If I can do it, I'm sure most people can.
:clap3: :clap3: well done and thanks very intresting :clap3: :clap3: common sense really
i got 249 yrds with a zero plus when i used to pendilum with 150 .35 line
and at least you found a rod you like can cast well and stuck with it good for you mate
DoubleShotDamo
08-02-2007, 21:44
i.e. You have 2 men, 1 strong, 1 weak. And a big rock and a small rock. And a wooden post.
Strong man tries to move big rock but it doesn't budge.
Weak man uses his head and applies the technique he was taught at rock moving college, he moves the small rock next to the big rock, grabs the wooden post and places it between the two rocks and by leverage he moves the big rock.
Who moved the big rock ? Big Gripper or Weak Geek
Why did he move it, because he used his head or his strength ?
You seam to imply that big guys with the strength are thick, and don't use logic! What if you get a big guy, strong who uses his head?
Answer: The best casters in the world.
Now tell me I am wrong. I bet more of the best casters in the world are bigger than average.
DoubleShotDamo
08-02-2007, 21:48
i got 249 yrds with a zero plus when i used to pendilum with 150 .35 line
and at least you found a rod you like can cast well and stuck with it good for you mate
Thanks. I got loads over the 250, best 257. Gave up over three years ago. Want to get back on the practice field this year though. Last year fishing for hounds with one crab bait clipped down, casting just seamed to "click". Arms in the right place, looked up a bit more than usual, and emptied a load of line off the reel.
Timing is a big part of the cast.
The Penetrator
08-02-2007, 22:27
Mate, you are writing like you are p!ssed off! I am not going to turn this thread into a casting vs fishing debate. Nor am I going to disrespect the old greats, and neither am I going to talk about moving rocks!
I have to disagree with you about rod technology. Mackellow broke all the records with a Zziplex Quattra Sport. The rod was a top rod at the time. The world record stood for many many years. His technique was and is faultless. If you had given him a crap rod at the time, say a solid glass 11' beach rod, he would not have cast the same distances, good style or not. The gear HAS to be capable of doing the business in the first place. Nowadays you can pick up a new rod for 150 quid, and cast 200 yards. I agree, give a top rod to a plonker and he won't cast far. Give him lessons, and he will. Give him lessons with a 30 quid combo special, and he ain't going to cast 200!
I was casting over 200 yards through practice, reading Sea Angler mag when it was heavily into casting articles and talking to people. I have cast with an instructor, and was beating him every cast! That was three years ago. I haven't cast properly since due to commitments. And he said if only I cast UP and not to the horizon like an angler, I would add 30 yards. Nice, I would be up there with the big boys then!! But I have a Zziplex Zero Plus, and have been advised by competent, well known casters, that it would be capable of chucking 250 ish. Well, I've done that. So where to now?? New rod? Or tweak my cast? I would opt for the tweaks as my technique is not bad, just a few things (like looking up) to sort out. So I do agree with you about technique. But I am a mortal and cast well over 200 yards without the tuition, so others CAN hit 200 with practice, a capable rod and an ok style. :)
You've totally missed the point of the thread and I'm not going to try and reason with you mate.
Good luck with taking on Big Danny :boat: :boat: :boat:
The Penetrator
08-02-2007, 22:28
You seam to imply that big guys with the strength are thick, and don't use logic! What if you get a big guy, strong who uses his head?
Answer: The best casters in the world.
Now tell me I am wrong. I bet more of the best casters in the world are bigger than average.
ROFLOL, are you taking the P*ss ???
edit: I'd just like to add that neither the Big Gripper or Weak Geek were hurt in todays experiment, however the wooden post was found to have splinters.
some of the best caster i know ar short solid blokes!
im 6,4 and cant cast for toffee!
I only asked if there was a story!:D
Good thread!
I taught myself a couple of years ago with the aid of a john holden video, a video camera and one of those measuring wheel things (you know push them along the ground and count the clicks!)
Withing half a dozen sessions I was topping 215 yards with a standard beach gear of mag elite and kompressor match. I think a had a fairly sound technique to begin with though.
I'm sure I'm better now, though but havn't tried in a field since. I would like to have a lesson or two still to see if I've picked up some bad habits!
I know this is a casting thread and not a fishing one, but I will say my catches of rays have improved significantly (catch less bass though!) and I'm sure the extra 40 / 50 yards make a difference for them in particular?
The Penetrator
09-02-2007, 00:06
I only asked if there was a story!:D
Good thread!
I should have just said 'yes' and left it alone.
I reckon that would have been easier.
Gaz :banghead: :)
DoubleShotDamo
09-02-2007, 11:27
You've totally missed the point of the thread and I'm not going to try and reason with you mate.
Good luck with taking on Big Danny :boat: :boat: :boat:
I don't cast competitively, and have no intention of taking on anyone, big or small.
The thread is entitled "The Magical Secret to Casting Further". I just happened to point out that being a big, strong bloke helps. I totally agreed with you regarding technique, yet you go off the deep end talking about poxy rocks and wooden poles! :unsure:
ROFLOL, are you taking the P*ss ??
No, I was not taking the p!ss. As I don't cast competitively and you do, you must be right. :notworthy Most top casters are little people, and if they are anything like you are portraying yourself to be, they probably have "Little man syndrome" aswell. :blink:
The Penetrator
09-02-2007, 13:45
I don't cast competitively, and have no intention of taking on anyone, big or small.
The thread is entitled "The Magical Secret to Casting Further". I just happened to point out that being a big, strong bloke helps. I totally agreed with you regarding technique, yet you go off the deep end talking about poxy rocks and wooden poles! :unsure:
No, I was not taking the p!ss. As I don't cast competitively and you do, you must be right. :notworthy Most top casters are little people, and if they are anything like you are portraying yourself to be, they probably have "Little man syndrome" aswell. :blink:
Being a 'little man' and all................
If you're going to insult me, I'd prefer it if you did it to my face in person rather than from behind your keyboard.
Cheers,
Gaz :wave:
DoubleShotDamo
09-02-2007, 14:02
Being a 'little man' and all................
If you're going to insult me, I'd prefer it if you did it to my face in person rather than from behind your keyboard.
Cheers,
Gaz :wave:
No insult intended, like I am sure you were not intending to insult "big" guys by presuming they have no brains.
I am not prepared to continue this anymore. We both have made valid points, whether or not we choose to agree on them is up to us. I am not on this forum to make enimies, so let's call it a day. :kissing:
The Penetrator
09-02-2007, 14:32
No insult intended, like I am sure you were not intending to insult "big" guys by presuming they have no brains.
I am not prepared to continue this anymore. We both have made valid points, whether or not we choose to agree on them is up to us. I am not on this forum to make enimies, so let's call it a day. :kissing:
Do you honestly believe that I was insulting 'big' guys ?
I was making up an example to prove a point about levers. It could have been the big fella with the brains, it makes no difference. Whoever uses the lever correctly gets to move the rock. Big or small in stature, that is the whole point.
I reckon you're just a wind up merchant, the alternative has me in stitches mate.
:roll1: :roll1: :roll1: :roll1:
I'm more than happy to call it a day.
DoubleShotDamo
09-02-2007, 15:42
Do you honestly believe that I was insulting 'big' guys ?
I was making up an example to prove a point about levers. It could have been the big fella with the brains, it makes no difference. Whoever uses the lever correctly gets to move the rock. Big or small in stature, that is the whole point.
I reckon you're just a wind up merchant, the alternative has me in stitches mate.
:roll1: :roll1: :roll1: :roll1:
I'm more than happy to call it a day.
Damn!! You rumbled me!!!! :clap3:
Seriously though big guys........forget it! :)
Good thread if you ask me. Nothing wrong with discussing one of the finer and more tricky parts of the sport in detail. After all, this is what the forum is designed for.
The Penetrator
09-02-2007, 16:37
There are many ways to skin a cat.
Some are just faster, less messy and have better results than others.
I'm sure that almost anyone can cast 200yds given the right instruction.
Whether your equipment is capable of that is another matter all together and isn't the purpose of the thread.
philtherod
09-02-2007, 17:15
Can I take a breath now?
philtherod
The Penetrator
09-02-2007, 17:36
Can I take a breath now?
philtherod
I thought it best to explain the initial statement, I hope I've done it justice but more importantly help others go down the same route.
If that makes me a cock, then bring me the hen.
Gaz :kissing:
You've done a great job Penetrator.
Interesting read in which your enthusiasm for casting and the benefits of lessons really shines through. I'm sure what you have shared will inspire others to do the same. Me included if i can get out of London!
As for the small guy, big guy thing then its obviously some advantage to be 6 foot plus and flexible and strong but none of that is any good to you at all if you dont have good timing and technique IMO.
The Penetrator
11-02-2007, 02:39
You've done a great job Penetrator.
Interesting read in which your enthusiasm for casting and the benefits of lessons really shines through. I'm sure what you have shared will inspire others to do the same. Me included if i can get out of London!
As for the small guy, big guy thing then its obviously some advantage to be 6 foot plus and flexible and strong but none of that is any good to you at all if you dont have good timing and technique IMO.
Cheers mate, I appreciate your sentiments. If it inspires just 1 person then it was worth it. Casting is a great sport in its own right and most participants are very helpful. The top guys are just as helpful as anyone else too, there's no ego thing going on. Quite a lot of friendly banter though :-).
Check this out:
http://www.myfishcasting.org/casting_forum/viewtopic.php?t=3322
There are loads of instructors dotted around the South East too.
http://www.kentsportcast.myby.co.uk/
http://uksf.sea-angler.org/calendar.html
smoothound54
11-02-2007, 14:20
this is a good thread - all the contributors are to be congratulated
i know that getting into detailed technique stuff via forums is a bit risky
but....... the earlier reference to keeping left arm straight could be relevant for me - and some mates - i know the basics of OTG technique theory from text/video etc - but have not heard a reference like this - any chance if a short description please?
thanks in advance
ps i am going to get tuition its just to try out
cheers
Al
The Penetrator
11-02-2007, 15:45
This is what I've been taught for right handed low reel casting, I'm not sure if it applies for reel up the rod, i suppose it does.......
Just try to keep your left arm as straight as comfortably possible until the punch pull phase of the cast. Start with it around head height ish.
Right arm should be bent to 90 degrees ish until the punch pull phase.
Bring the rod around your body rather than over the top, this will prevent you from cutting the corner.
Imagine your left fist is scribing an arc in the sky as you bring the round around.
You really need an instructor to show you what I'm talking about. A picture paints a thousand words etc or join this website :
http://www.myfishcasting.org/casting_forum/viewforum.php?f=1
The experts on here are very friendly. If you've got a video camera try filming your cast and these fellas can give you pointers if an instructor isn't practical. Some of the worlds best casters frequent the site.
crazyplums
11-02-2007, 17:29
hmmm, could i just add (after reading all of this), 90% is technique, for sure, mine's awful !
but, i'm gonna have to side with DSD here. of all the big casters i know, TALL or SHORT, they are all fairly big guys, ie well built, the 'Mr muscle' guy off the tv ad's aint gonna cast 200yrds with any amount of tuition or right equipment, is he ? height has nothing to do with it (unless you're really a midget (no offence to little people intended) and a 13ft rod is more like an 18ft next to ya), weight and physique does, you still need x amount of power at the right time to be a good caster,
you dont see little guys doing shotput at the olympics do you ? i might have the perfect technique to be a world class shotput athelete, but if i aint got the physical size to throw is a long way, then i'll never be up there with the best, will i !!!
a 3stone weakling wont be able to lift a lever big enough to move the proverbial rock !
my thruppence
lugi1024
11-02-2007, 17:33
Hi to all.
I'm sorry for my English.
Excellent thread. I cast in loneliness and obligatorily I learn in loneliness.
Threads like this one help me.
From my apprentice's small position, I would add one more thing:
The confidence.
You can buy rods and reels, but it is not possible to buy confidence.You can learn to cast ( + or -) ,but a good cast it only possible if you cast whit confidence.
Forum Jersey is a very best forum casting.
Regards
crazyplums
11-02-2007, 17:37
good point Lugi, it certainly helps,
smoothound54
11-02-2007, 18:05
This is what I've been taught for right handed low reel casting, I'm not sure if it applies for reel up the rod, i suppose it does.......
Just try to keep your left arm as straight as comfortably possible until the punch pull phase of the cast. Start with it around head height ish.
Right arm should be bent to 90 degrees ish until the punch pull phase.
Bring the rod around your body rather than over the top, this will prevent you from cutting the corner.
Imagine your left fist is scribing an arc in the sky as you bring the round around.
You really need an instructor to show you what I'm talking about. A picture paints a thousand words etc or join this website :
http://www.myfishcasting.org/casting_forum/viewforum.php?f=1
The experts on here are very friendly. If you've got a video camera try filming your cast and these fellas can give you pointers if an instructor isn't practical. Some of the worlds best casters frequent the site.
perfect many thanks - i,ll play with that - i think i have also (through your reply) sussed out what cutting the corner is - i think
double thanks
The Penetrator
11-02-2007, 19:46
hmmm, could i just add (after reading all of this), 90% is technique, for sure, mine's awful !
but, i'm gonna have to side with DSD here. of all the big casters i know, TALL or SHORT, they are all fairly big guys, ie well built, the 'Mr muscle' guy off the tv ad's aint gonna cast 200yrds with any amount of tuition or right equipment, is he ? height has nothing to do with it (unless you're really a midget (no offence to little people intended) and a 13ft rod is more like an 18ft next to ya), weight and physique does, you still need x amount of power at the right time to be a good caster,
you dont see little guys doing shotput at the olympics do you ? i might have the perfect technique to be a world class shotput athelete, but if i aint got the physical size to throw is a long way, then i'll never be up there with the best, will i !!!
a 3stone weakling wont be able to lift a lever big enough to move the proverbial rock !
my thruppence
You're entitled to totally miss the point like DSD mate, so don't worry about it.
Nothing surprises me on the internet, especially on this site. :bangin:
:roll1: :roll1: :roll1:
The Penetrator
11-02-2007, 19:52
Hi to all.
I'm sorry for my English.
Excellent thread. I cast in loneliness and obligatorily I learn in loneliness.
Threads like this one help me.
From my apprentice's small position, I would add one more thing:
The confidence.
You can buy rods and reels, but it is not possible to buy confidence.You can learn to cast ( + or -) ,but a good cast it only possible if you cast whit confidence.
Forum Jersey is a very best forum casting.
Regards
Confidence is gained through technique and practice Lugi.
10hrs spent practising the cast and learning technique will get you further than 10hrs spent in the gym.
You'll get lots of help on the Jersey site.
perfect many thanks - i,ll play with that - i think i have also (through your reply) sussed out what cutting the corner is - i think
double thanks
GOOD you can show me at the fish and meet on GYNN next week...
The Penetrator
11-02-2007, 20:27
GOOD you can show me at the fish and meet on GYNN next week...
There are fish at the Gynn Dave ?
Never, I don't believe that. :fishing1: :clap:
lugi1024
11-02-2007, 20:32
Confidence is gained through technique and practice Lugi.
10hrs spent practising the cast and learning technique will get you further than 10hrs spent in the gym.
You'll get lots of help on the Jersey site.
In agreement Penetrator, with the technique you turn your head, hip, arms; you delay your arms, take your left straight arm, load the rod .............
but when there comes the final moment (push-pull) you have to exploit, with violence, with rapidity .......... with confidence.
The practice contributes knowledges, safety and balance .......... but it is your mind who allows you to trust in you itself.
Best Regards
One further comment on the 'big guy' thing:
Think about golf: Some of the longest hitters in the world are hardly well built.
Some are big guys (like John Daly) but most simply have superb timing and technique and are flexible. Even Tiger is athletic rather than 'big' and Woosnam was one ofthe longest hitters in the world in his day and he's 5 ft 4!!
crazyplums
11-02-2007, 21:30
You're entitled to totally miss the point like DSD mate, so don't worry about it.
Nothing surprises me on the internet, especially on this site. :bangin:
:roll1: :roll1: :roll1:
i do not beleive DSD, or myself, have missed the point, he, and i agree about technique, but you seem oblivious (if not a little rude and arrogant too) to the fact that we have a point too.
to prove our point, i will set you a test. now i'm not what i would call a good caster, 150yrds perhaps (i've never measured it), easily beatable.
so, the challenge for you is, get an average 10yr old boy, give him the same gear as me, and give him as much tuition as you please, then bring him along, and let's see if his small light frame, but with superior technique, will outcast my 14st build with non perfect technique, i can tell you now, that i put 10x the effort into hauling a 6oz lead around from behind me, than a 10yr old would find physically possible.
it just doesnt work, or there'd be kids with the perfect cast technique, beating the big fella's on the court and the beach.
now, if you're too preoccupied with your own ideas, to accept that others may well have a point, then i fear you'll miss all points but your own, thats no way to learn anything. and no way to make friends either, disagreements are fine, but there's no need to be rude.
happy chucking.
crazyplums
11-02-2007, 21:33
One further comment on the 'big guy' thing:
Think about golf: Some of the longest hitters in the world are hardly well built.
Some are big guys (like John Daly) but most simply have superb timing and technique and are flexible. Even Tiger is athletic rather than 'big' and Woosnam was one ofthe longest hitters in the world in his day and he's 5 ft 4!!
i don't really think it's in the same league as casting, the few times i have hit a golf ball, have required massively less power than with a cast, the club is light, with only weight in the head, and the ball is loaded with elastic/rubber, and dimpled etc for ditance, it certainly doesnt have 150g+ of lead on the end of it,
The Penetrator
11-02-2007, 22:50
i do not beleive DSD, or myself, have missed the point, he, and i agree about technique, but you seem oblivious (if not a little rude and arrogant too) to the fact that we have a point too.
to prove our point, i will set you a test. now i'm not what i would call a good caster, 150yrds perhaps (i've never measured it), easily beatable.
so, the challenge for you is, get an average 10yr old boy, give him the same gear as me, and give him as much tuition as you please, then bring him along, and let's see if his small light frame, but with superior technique, will outcast my 14st build with non perfect technique, i can tell you now, that i put 10x the effort into hauling a 6oz lead around from behind me, than a 10yr old would find physically possible.
it just doesnt work, or there'd be kids with the perfect cast technique, beating the big fella's on the court and the beach.
now, if you're too preoccupied with your own ideas, to accept that others may well have a point, then i fear you'll miss all points but your own, thats no way to learn anything. and no way to make friends either, disagreements are fine, but there's no need to be rude.
happy chucking.
You admit to not having a technique so I'm guessing you've never seen the benefit of having one.
How can you have an argument on technique if you've never experienced the benefits on having one ?
I guarantee your opinion will change if you ever do learn a correct technique.
I've seen young kids chuck further than you can imagine, not that it's relevant to the whole point.
The golf swing is a great analogy.
Do you think my strength doubled when my cast went from 80 yds to 160 yds, or do you reckon that 100% increase was down to technique ?
smoothound54
11-02-2007, 22:56
GOOD you can show me at the fish and meet on GYNN next week...
do me best but still learnin havin been away from beachcastin for 25+ years!
see ya then
Al
crazyplums
11-02-2007, 23:09
as i have said, technique has alot to do with it, but, and it's a big BUT, if you've not got the strength to pull and push, putting alot of power into a stiff rod in the first place, then you're technique will count for little, why is this concept so impossible for you to see ?
i have my own technique, which can be imporved upon, but i guess it cant be too bad to empty over half my mag elites full spool of 15lb line.
The Penetrator
11-02-2007, 23:12
Take a look at the Junior UKSF records
http://uksf.sea-angler.org/records.html
They are all further than I've ever cast and I'm 84Kg's.
230m = 251 yards
The Penetrator
11-02-2007, 23:22
as i have said, technique has alot to do with it, but, and it's a big BUT, if you've not got the strength to pull and push, putting alot of power into a stiff rod in the first place, then you're technique will count for little, why is this concept so impossible for you to see ?
i have my own technique, which can be imporved upon, but i guess it cant be too bad to empty over half my mag elites full spool of 15lb line.
Now you're adding more variables to prove your irrelevant point about the 10 year old kid ???
Who says you need a stiff rod ?
The Zziplex Primo Synchro is regarded as an ideal rod to learn casting with as a novice, yet the same rod has also been cast close to 300 yards.
The Synchro is also a great general beach fishing rod.
The punch pull is the final part of the cast, it's not critical to have a decent PP to get to 200 yards. My PP is appalling, it's what is preventing me from casting further. A novice can learn the PP once the basics are mastered (arc, left arm, where to increase speed, looking at target, foot placement, weight distribution etc etc). Having strength will improve your PP and is probably what sorts out the worlds best, but it won't improve the factors in the brackets which are far more important in gaining distance in the first instance for joe public.
Of course you need a certain amount of strength to cast, you also need a certain amount of strength to get out of bed in the morning too.
I'll try to spell it out.
The average strength person, with the average height, with average intelligence, with an average number of working limbs can cast 200 yards with tuition.
Without the correct technique be it taught or through good luck, the bloke above won't get to 200 yards. Not even if he makes himself stronger down the gym.
Did I go from 80 - 200 yds because I got over twice as strong after tuition ?
Or was it down to technique ?
AndrewJS
12-02-2007, 00:31
Hi Penetrator - Its all about technique.
When I was shown technique by my instructor he found that I was putting in too much power, too soon. The result was not being able to stop the rod coming over the top and cutting the corner. Now that I can cast a fair distance I find that all my good casts seem effortless and the rod feels light. I reckon its not so much the power in the cast but the acceleration/speed of the final hit.:)
DoubleShotDamo
12-02-2007, 00:39
The punch pull is the final part of the cast, it's not critical to have a decent PP to get to 200 yards. My PP is appalling, it's what is preventing me from casting further. A novice can learn the PP once the basics are mastered (arc, left arm, where to increase speed, looking at target, foot placement, weight distribution etc etc). Having strength will improve your PP and is probably what sorts out the worlds best, but it won't improve the factors in the brackets which are far more important in gaining distance in the first instance for joe public.
Of course you need a certain amount of strength to cast, you also need a certain amount of strength to get out of bed in the morning too.
I'll try to spell it out.
The average strength person, with the average height, with average intelligence, with an average number of working limbs can cast 200 yards with tuition.
Without the correct technique be it taught or through good luck, the bloke above won't get to 200 yards. Not even if he makes himself stronger down the gym.
Did I go from 80 - 200 yds because I got over twice as strong after tuition ?
Or was it down to technique ?
Ok, I think you need tecnique and a bit of strength. All brute force will get you nowhere. Tecnique will get you a long way...add a bit of beef, and you become a top caster.
As for getting to 200 requiring lessons, I cast in excess of 250 yards, have all my limbs, am 13st 12lb and 6' 1". Draw your own conclusions. :unsure:
P.S. My tecnique, I have been told, is good, but some factors can be improved.
The Penetrator
12-02-2007, 00:54
Ok, I think you need tecnique and a bit of strength. All brute force will get you nowhere. Tecnique will get you a long way...add a bit of beef, and you become a top caster.
As for getting to 200 requiring lessons, I cast in excess of 250 yards, have all my limbs, am 13st 12lb and 6' 1". Draw your own conclusions. :unsure:
P.S. My tecnique, I have been told, is good, but some factors can be improved.
DSD, we finally agree I think :clap2: That strength doesn't have to be anything other than ordinary to get you to 200yds, technique with an ordinary blokes strength can get you there. It got me there and I'd been a fat barsteward pen pusher for 4 years at that point with very little strength. I was a fat useless t**t plain and simple.
I'm a few pounds lighter than you now and 4" shorter yet I'm 50 yds down on your cast.
I suspect this is down to my lack of strength because my PP is fanny.
I'm currently weightlifting to increase my strength and make me look sexy to big titted birds, I'll let you know if it the added strength does improve my finish to the cast, I hope that it does.
Gaz :wiggle: :hug: :bye1:
The Penetrator
12-02-2007, 01:05
Hi Penetrator - Its all about technique.
When I was shown technique by my instructor he found that I was putting in too much power, too soon. The result was not being able to stop the rod coming over the top and cutting the corner. Now that I can cast a fair distance I find that all my good casts seem effortless and the rod feels light. I reckon its not so much the power in the cast but the acceleration/speed of the final hit.:)
That's it Mr AndrewJS, using the available power with control.
Technique teaches you control.
Put a normal bloke in a 320BHP Evo 8
Put a rally driver in a 320BHP Evo 8
Who gets round the circuit the quickest ?
Same Car (rod), same BHP (strength), except one driver's been taught technique.
Give the normal bloke more BHP (strength), he'll still get his arse whipped until he takes a few lessons from the rally driver.
Slowly his times will come down as his technique improves.
He might never be as fast as the rally driver, but he'll be a lot closer than he was.
crazyplums
12-02-2007, 09:21
DSD, we finally agree I think :clap2: That strength doesn't have to be anything other than ordinary to get you to 200yds, technique with an ordinary blokes strength can get you there. It got me there and I'd been a fat barsteward pen pusher for 4 years at that point with very little strength. I was a fat useless t**t plain and simple.
I'm a few pounds lighter than you now and 4" shorter yet I'm 50 yds down on your cast.
I suspect this is down to my lack of strength because my PP is fanny.
I'm currently weightlifting to increase my brain strength and make me look sexy to big muscled ugly birds, I'll let you know if it the added strength does improve my finish to the cast, I hope that it does.
Gaz :wiggle: :hug: :bye1:
dude, you could have saved yourself alot of hot air, dsd said exactly what he just said way back in the thread, agreeing about technique AND strength, you didnt see that,
i tried to say the same, that it's 90% technique, the rest is build / strength, the biggest hitters are big blokes, simple, but again, you wouldnt see past your own nose, and poo poo'd any other suggestion, despite the fact they almost agree with you, hence my exaggerated examples.
your metaphor about the rally driver is totally irrellevent to your argument, rally drivers are among the fittest blokes in the world !! proving strength / stamina (in this case) is required !
you claim it is all to do with technique, nowt to do with strength, but, you are wrong. you need strength to get things swinging and to hit the cast right, the amount of strength / technique ratio will of course vary, but technique alone will not win comps,
as for my challenge to you, i have changed no boundaries, i said that i challenge you to find an average ten yr old boy, give him lessons to perfect his technique, using the same gear as me (a 13ft suveran xp match, and a mag elite with a 5 or 6oz lead), and see if he'll outcast my poor technique. the only thing i have mentioned is that it's a stiff rod, i havent changed anything though,
you now want to change it to a zipplex to make it easier for him ? :schmoll: whether its the perfect learning rod or not, that aint the deal. i want to simply prove that size does matter !
technique and build / strength, without both, you'll never be in the top ten,
DoubleShotDamo
12-02-2007, 10:41
DSD, we finally agree I think :clap2: That strength doesn't have to be anything other than ordinary to get you to 200yds, technique with an ordinary blokes strength can get you there. It got me there and I'd been a fat barsteward pen pusher for 4 years at that point with very little strength. I was a fat useless t**t plain and simple.
I didn't want to say!! (only kidding! :) )
I'm a few pounds lighter than you now and 4" shorter yet I'm 50 yds down on your cast.
I suspect this is down to my lack of strength because my PP is fanny.
I'm currently weightlifting to increase my strength and make me look sexy to big titted birds, I'll let you know if it the added strength does improve my finish to the cast, I hope that it does.
Gaz :wiggle: :hug: :bye1:
Let me know if it works for the big titted birds!! :unsure:
oldchukka
12-02-2007, 11:02
having read through all of the comments i would like to say .
there must be some very confused potential casters out there, due to the at times
technical long drawn- out comments on the subject.
do you need to be big, will you be able to cast far if you are small, - long drop -short drop, stiff rod,- soft rod, and on and on .
the way to go is to get someone out onto a casting area, watch them cast a couple of times ,then make an assesment on where to make improvments, once you have hopefully got them relaxed an ready to go.
a half decent instructor will be able able to tell what type of rod will suite each individual, and having a rod or two for them to try is helpful.
the rest of the tuition will progress depending on the ability of the instructor to pass on his knowledge in terms the pupil understands.
unfotunately this topic started with the word magic involved. come on lets lighten up, learning to cast should be fun as long as its done with safety, and advice should be given without the technical jargon that does nothing but fry the brains of anyone asking for help.
by the way , heres a description of me,-- athritic - diabetic - geriatric, hoping to improve anyone to cast better than myself
Technique/Strength/Size/speed/fitness/dedication/determination etc ??, could all be a relevant to the very top end of the big boy casting league.
However, like every other sport, only the odd person will have the lot and can place all the pieces together to become a champ. Most of us will stay Mr Average regardless of how big/strong/fast etc etc we are.
You can be good, very good with just Technique/dedication etc in you own league, as my wife found out. Only 5ft 4", 9 stone, at the UKSF she was 2nd place in the UK light line events 4th July 2004.
OK, 2nd place with 128 yards might not seem far and she was well under her PB of 150 yards, but in her league, still close to becoming UK number one lady 2004 at Huntington. IMHO that's something to be proud of.
All thanks to her instructor Mr Dave Vicary and other top caster at Anglia Sportcast.
Which proves, you don't need to be a superman, or posses all the ingredients to reach somewhere near the top of the league. BUT! you probably will need all of them, plus the right conditions on the day, to become a Number one, world champ.
Even then, you will need to overcome the Oche nerves, standing out there in front of the worlds best, all looking at you waiting to cock it all up, can knock yards off a cast.
DoubleShotDamo
12-02-2007, 16:12
Even then, you will need to overcome the Oche nerves, standing out there in front of the worlds best, all looking at you waiting to cock it all up, can knock yards off a cast.
I could imagine!
The Penetrator
12-02-2007, 20:54
dude, you could have saved yourself alot of hot air, dsd said exactly what he just said way back in the thread, agreeing about technique AND strength, you didnt see that,
i tried to say the same, that it's 90% technique, the rest is build / strength, the biggest hitters are big blokes, simple, but again, you wouldnt see past your own nose, and poo poo'd any other suggestion, despite the fact they almost agree with you, hence my exaggerated examples.
your metaphor about the rally driver is totally irrellevent to your argument, rally drivers are among the fittest blokes in the world !! proving strength / stamina (in this case) is required !
you claim it is all to do with technique, nowt to do with strength, but, you are wrong. you need strength to get things swinging and to hit the cast right, the amount of strength / technique ratio will of course vary, but technique alone will not win comps,
as for my challenge to you, i have changed no boundaries, i said that i challenge you to find an average ten yr old boy, give him lessons to perfect his technique, using the same gear as me (a 13ft suveran xp match, and a mag elite with a 5 or 6oz lead), and see if he'll outcast my poor technique. the only thing i have mentioned is that it's a stiff rod, i havent changed anything though,
you now want to change it to a zipplex to make it easier for him ? :schmoll: whether its the perfect learning rod or not, that aint the deal. i want to simply prove that size does matter !
technique and build / strength, without both, you'll never be in the top ten,
"Tecnique will get you a long way...add a bit of beef, and you become a top caster." Double Shot Damo
That's what DSD said. For starters we're not talking about becoming a top caster, we're talking about the achievable distance of 200 yds.
You don't need 'beef' (stronger than mr average) to get there, technique alone will get you there. Strength alone won't, technique will. DSD agrees to that 100%.
Like I've already said, the fact you're using a 10 year old kid to try and prove your point shows your talking poo poo. How far do you want to take it, will a 2 year old toddler prove your point even further ???
In 99% (all adults) of cases size doesn't matter. The average sized, weight, strength, limbed adult can get there without requiring additional strength over that which is just normal FFS. The crucial element is technique. I'll stand by that all day and night.
Even the rally driver scenario has gone straight over your head, LOL. No surprise there then............
A 60 year old ex rally driver with a severe drinking problem will still beat a fit healthy 30 year old adult that has little or no technique.
All your other points I just can't be bothered to answer, there is no point talking to a brick wall.
I've had trying to explain night is dark to you.
Like I've asked before, did my strength have to double to get me from 80 yds to 200 yds or was it down to technique ?
Come back when you can answer that simple question.
I'll even give you a clue, my strength didn't change at all.
I reckon you're another wind up merchant, either that or just *edited* ;-)
oldchukka
12-02-2007, 21:40
you two are going over the top a bit are,nt you? do you read my threads at all!!
if you do you will see the truth about casting from experience.
i,m 70 on the 3rd of march and can still hit 200yds and some if i can get motivated
i have put people over 220--- 240yds from being mediochre and moderate casters, some small some big and some a bit misshapen like myself.
all this done with common sense and an eye for spotting mistakes and gently eliminating them , without technical jargon.
i have met and spoken to the very best , and yes most of them were massive but ive seen them get their a--es tanned a few times by small casters.
life is too short to get so het- up over casting oldchukka, athritic - diabetic -geriatric
p.s if you want to see some good casting records, have a look at n.w.s.c junior records
crazyplums
12-02-2007, 21:43
"Tecnique will get you a long way...add a bit of beef, and you become a top caster." Double Shot Damo
That's what DSD said. For starters we're not talking about becoming a top caster, we're talking about the achievable distance of 200 yds.
You don't need 'beef' (stronger than mr average) to get there, technique alone will get you there. Strength alone won't, technique will. DSD agrees to that 100%.
Like I've already said, the fact you're using a 10 year old kid to try and prove your point shows your talking poo poo. How far do you want to take it, will a 2 year old toddler prove your point even further ???
In 99% (all adults) of cases size doesn't matter. The average sized, weight, strength, limbed adult can get there without requiring additional strength over that which is just normal FFS. The crucial element is technique. I'll stand by that all day and night.
Even the rally driver scenario has gone straight over your head, LOL. No surprise there then............
A 60 year old ex rally driver with a severe drinking problem will still beat a fit healthy 30 year old adult that has little or no technique.
All your other points I just can't be bothered to answer, there is no point talking to a brick wall.
I've had trying to explain night is dark to you.
Like I've asked before, did my strength have to double to get me from 80 yds to 200 yds or was it down to technique ?
Come back when you can answer that simple question.
I'll even give you a clue, my strength didn't change at all.
I reckon you're another wind up merchant, either that or just *edited* ;-)
lol, round and around we go !
i never said it was ALL to do with strength, i said 90% technique, did i not ?
what you are clearly saying is that it doesn't matter how big, strong, etc you are, and that technique is EVERYTHING, when it isn't, my point of using a 10yr old, is trying to prove that, the average 10yr old, even with the right tuition and a perfect technique, will probably not cast 200yrds as he doesnt have a big enough physique, where-as a well built bloke, with reasonable technique, probably could,
my 10yr old lad, with an 8ft fod, could probably perfect his a pendulum technique with tuition, but until he can handle a heavier 12/13/14ft rod, the big distances won't come with technique alone.
the majority of big hitters, on the beach or the field, are big blokes with a good to perfect technique, i would hazard a guess that my technique is as good as some of those big guys i fish with, but i cannot cast as far. why ? if it's not all down to the rod in your hand, and the tuning of the reel (mine is very fast) then it must be something to do with strength ans stability in the cast, not just the technique !
btw, you said your cast doubled from 80yrds to 160yrds, but you didnt double in strength, thats fair enough, i dont expect you did, even the 200yrds which has now been mentioned, but if you wanna be in the 300yrd league, then strength, speed, technique etc, all come into play.
have i made myself clear now ? or shall i try again :blink: :blink: :unsure:
as for the rally driver thing, it didnt go over my head, i thought about it quite clearly, a professional rally driver (unlike the days when my dad completed the east african rally, the rac rally, and many others in kenya and the uk) is an extremely fit guy, you do a rally stage over 50 miles, and the rally driver will stillbe fairly relaxed, the unfit driver will struggle, regardless of driving ability, driving a car is not the same as casting, unless all you do is continuously cast and retreive, driving a car is continuous effort. so, the concept is irrellevent.
DoubleShotDamo
12-02-2007, 21:59
Ding Ding....Round 3 :boxing: :boxing: :black_eye :black_eye
crazyplums
12-02-2007, 22:01
you two are going over the top a bit are,nt you? do you read my threads at all!!
if you do you will see the truth about casting from experience.
i,m 70 on the 3rd of march and can still hit 200yds and some if i can get motivated
i have put people over 220--- 240yds from being mediochre and moderate casters, some small some big and some a bit misshapen like myself.
all this done with common sense and an eye for spotting mistakes and gently eliminating them , without technical jargon.
i have met and spoken to the very best , and yes most of them were massive but ive seen them get their a--es tanned a few times by small casters.
life is too short to get so het- up over casting oldchukka, athritic - diabetic -geriatric
p.s if you want to see some good casting records, have a look at n.w.s.c junior records
i dont disagree dude, as i've said to penetrator, technique is the big part of casting, but with the more strength, will come more distance. i'm certain.
re the casting records, what constitues a junior though ? without height/weight references to go on, it's hard to say, i would say one of the top ten casters in our club was a junior until a few weeks ago, he's best part of 6ft tall and is a hefty young lad, he's not a bean pole, a junior doesnt have to mean small,
keeping with juniors, take a 10yr old and a 15yr old, the 10yr old slim (as per the usual) and the 15yr old well built (short or tall), both with a perfect technique, i would put money on the bigger lad anytime, beach or court !
tight lines dude !
philtherod
12-02-2007, 22:20
Dennis Darkin, the ex-UKSF treasurer, taught the late John Darling and me to cast well in the early '70s. His philosophy was, and probably still is, "A good big'un will beat a good littl'un, but a good littl'un will beat everyone else, and a great littl'un could get bigger, and become world champ"
If you want a better P& P, PM me.
philtherod
crazyplums
12-02-2007, 22:35
i agree 100% !
to get back on thread,
the magical secret to casting is;
technique.
plain and simple.
oldchukka
12-02-2007, 22:59
the junior record holders can be seen under northwest surfcasting association.
i remember them all very well none of them were huge and were all in their teens
none of them exceptionally tall , in fact the lad who amazed us most was neiran roberts who was short and squat. at the age of 15 he was awesome. another lad called allan varley was only slight in build and cast with us from being a little nipper and held junior records at the age of 15 or 16. i seem to remember an article in sea angler mag an article with a picture of nieran standing with neil mackellow where he looked very small. and all these lads were junior world class.
crazyplums
12-02-2007, 23:31
hi dude, i wasnt trying to be funny or owt, but i would guess a general rule of thumb, is that for two people of equal ability, but differing size, the bigger lad will cast further,
Has anyone tried this, get a chair (stool is better) faceing the direction of cast.
now try O T G cast sitting on the chair. when you have mastered this without falling off, now do it standing and notice the difference.
The same can be done with pendulum casting.
Make sure it is safe around you to cast as all ways and have lots of laughs and fun while you learn.
And before anyone says this is daft or silly, have a look through your old mags and you will find a disabled angler in a wheel chair entering casting comps and he was reaching 200+ yards, up with the top boys.
Again, make sure it is safe first and have fun.
The Penetrator
13-02-2007, 01:17
hi dude, i wasnt trying to be funny or owt, but i would guess a general rule of thumb, is that for two people of equal ability, but differing size, the bigger lad will cast further,
What is bigger ??? taller, heavier, longer nob ?????
A smaller guy may be faster because he has less bulk.
Being 'Big' , 'Strong', 'Large Hairy Hands' has nowt to do with getting to 200yds (for the average person :wallbash: ), Technique will get you there.
This discussion was never about Top Level casters, what sets them apart is totally irrelevant to this thread.
That's the bit you just don't seem to get, even DSD finally understood.
'Size' in casting is a myth perpetrated by Sea Angler magazine to make the lazy arsed masses feel better about themselves and you've bought it hook, line and sinker.
I've had it trying to dumb it down for you, this is my last post on the subject before I smash my monitor up.
DoubleShotDamo
13-02-2007, 10:49
That's the bit you just don't seem to get, even DSD finally understood.
'Size' in casting is a myth perpetrated by Sea Angler magazine to make the lazy arsed masses feel better about themselves and you've bought it hook, line and sinker.
I've had it trying to dumb it down for you, this is my last post on the subject before I smash my monitor up.
I never doubted technique was the major factor. Strength plays it's part, as does the gear you use.
I hope your monitor is ok! :unsure:
oldchukka
13-02-2007, 10:50
What is bigger ??? taller, heavier, longer nob ?????
A smaller guy may be faster because he has less bulk.
Being 'Big' , 'Strong', 'Large Hairy Hands' has nowt to do with getting to 200yds (for the average person :wallbash: ), Technique will get you there.
This discussion was never about Top Level casters, what sets them apart is totally irrelevant to this thread.
That's the bit you just don't seem to get, even DSD finally understood.
'Size' in casting is a myth perpetrated by Sea Angler magazine to make the lazy arsed masses feel better about themselves and you've bought it hook, line and sinker.
I've had it trying to dumb it down for you, this is my last post on the subject before I smash my monitor up.
now calm down and lets all be nice to each other
Ravelling Tangler
13-02-2007, 15:03
"Thaumatology" !
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
doesn't it strike you as odd that where there are 'vigorous' (that was polite, wasn't it?) discussions about casting further there are none about how close to shore a small boat should fish ?
You never see ones saying "lots of places I anchor fish better at 300 yards out than 80 yards out" or vice versa
Is it because in every area there are a number of specific marks and it is irrelevant how far out they are (unless on a lee shore, or in the way of a shore caster) - so no-one thinks to mention that ? Or is it something else.
DoubleShotDamo
13-02-2007, 17:20
More views....
......http://myfishcasting.org/casting_forum/viewtopic.php?t=3340
refer to my post on page 1:busted_co :busted_co :busted_co :busted_co :busted_co
oldchukka
13-02-2007, 18:52
refer to my post on page 1:busted_co :busted_co :busted_co :busted_co :busted_co
lasher , my old mate i know what you mean.:secret: :clap3:
crazyplums
13-02-2007, 20:51
What is bigger ??? taller, heavier, longer nob ?????
A smaller guy may be faster because he has less bulk.
Being 'Big' , 'Strong', 'Large Hairy Hands' has nowt to do with getting to 200yds (for the average person :wallbash: ), Technique will get you there.
This discussion was never about Top Level casters, what sets them apart is totally irrelevant to this thread.
That's the bit you just don't seem to get, even DSD finally understood.
'Size' in casting is a myth perpetrated by Sea Angler magazine to make the lazy arsed masses feel better about themselves and you've bought it hook, line and sinker.
I've had it trying to dumb it down for you, this is my last post on the subject before I smash my monitor up.
i'll look forward to the silence :kissing: :kissing: :kissing:
technique, hmmm, ok, i'll get my mate to show you the perfect way to to a power lifting clean n jerk (or however it's spelt) with a metal bar, now, he has shown you the perfect technique, but the fact that he's built like a brick outhouse (5.7" and 17 stone) means that he'll lift a bigger weight than you ! technique and strength matter, not just technique.
as for tournament casting, i was only using that as an example, i would enjoy watching you cast 200yrds with a baited rig, in fact, i'd be amazed to watch. but regardless of my irrelevent tournament casting, do you really think your technique, will outcast a big gun tournament caster on the beach ? point sinking in yet ?
see ya :kissing:
The Penetrator
14-02-2007, 00:14
I couldn't help myself after buying a new monitor. :kissing: :kissing: :kissing:
You've just proved yourself wrong fella.
What has your mates height and weight got to do with his strength ?
There is no correlation at all. You've basically said he's a short arse and overweight for his height. Thanks for that useless bit of info.
Clean and Jerk is a highly technical lifting discipline.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clean_and_jerk
Of 2 people with the same 'strength' the fella with the far better technique will always lift more than the bloke with little. Even a bloke with less strength and more technique will probably be able to lift more.
You can apply that to casting too even though casting to 200yds has nothing to do with an Olympic lifting exercise, let alone much to do with strength.
Technique can be easily gained through tuition, Strength can not and technique will get you much further than strength alone.
I know which one is far more important.
Come back when you find a Javelin thrower as a mate and/or just carry on digging away.
http://www.myfishcasting.org/casting_forum/viewtopic.php?t=3340
Post 11 sums it up.
crazyplums
14-02-2007, 10:22
I couldn't help myself after buying a new monitor. :kissing: :kissing: :kissing:
1) You've just proved yourself wrong fella.
2) What has your mates height and weight got to do with his strength ?
3) There is no correlation at all. You've basically said he's a short arse and overweight for his height. Thanks for that useless bit of info.
4) Of 2 people with the same 'strength' the fella with the far better technique will always lift more than the bloke with little. Even a bloke with less strength and more technique will probably be able to lift more.
5) You can apply that to casting too even though casting to 200yds has nothing to do with an Olympic lifting exercise, let alone much to do with strength.
6)Technique can be easily gained through tuition, Strength can not and technique will get you much further than strength alone.
7) I know which one is far more important.
8) Come back when you find a Javelin thrower as a mate and/or just carry on digging away.
right, Penetrator, i've deleted all my post, i just want you to answer the question at the end.
you claim, i am wrong, and that two people of equal strength, but one has better technique, and he will cast further,
well.... duh... of course, why would you think i'd disagree with that ? that has been agreed upon from the start, and it's not the argument,
the debate here, is that you think technique is everything, that strength is irrelevent, well, wrong,
take your javelin throwers, to be at the olympics, i guess thay all posess a fairly equal technique, but the stronger will throw further,
technique alone, is not enough,
i'll take the concept one step further now, lets take people completely out of the equasion, we'll built two identicle machine, capable of holding and casting a rod, two identicle rods of course, give them both a simple overhear thump/otg type of action, the figures are hyperthetical, the theory is not.
now, the first one, has 50psi in the hydraulic ram that pushes the rod forward before release, the rod travels at 28mph thru the air before release, and bends 30 degrees on the arc,
the second one uses 100psi, that rod now travels at 50+mph with a 45 degree bend in the rod, at the point of release,
now, which in your opinion will cast further ? will it be the 50psi little guy (who you probably feel sorry for), or will it be the 100psi big guy ?
now, answer that, without twisting it, or asking more questions, just one simple answer, big guy:yeah: or little guy:schmoll: .
it's really rather simple, isnt it :kissing:
oldchukka
14-02-2007, 10:44
i,ve got it sussed at last! when the casting starts, and the fishing improves, i plan to invite some clean living jerk to come fishing with me along with fatima whitbread and deamon hill, --- just going out and doing it is going to be very boring after reading these recent threads.---
ps, if there are any phyisically challenged oldies, with a low sense of gravity you can come too. :yeah: :yeah: :yeah:
This is starting to wander off topic now, we've gone from talking about casting technique to Fatima Whitbread. :blink:
I think the subject has been sufficiently explored and all parties have given an opinion, some of them very informed and enlightening, so I'm going to close this one now before it starts to become too personal and takes the attention away from the main discussion.
Thanks all. :)
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