[hotrodtodd]

Which of these style of hulls do people prefer? I seem to notice that most modern fishing boats seem to be going semi displacment single hull, ie warrior, raider, predators etc. Are these style any safer than cathederal hulls, ie sea hog hunter, wilson flyer etc?

 

[TomBettle]

Personally I would have put Warrior, Radar and Predators all in the medium Vee planing hull category and by no means semi displacement.

Semi Displacement are usually found on the inboard diesel shaft drive offerings from the likes of Jeanneau, Arvor, Beneteau and so on.

With reference to your question though, no one particular hull shape can be described as better than another. It is down to the main area of use that the owner will put his boat to and the he can pick and choose what would be best for him.

Very roughly:

Planing: Fast and reasonable in a chop, but begins to slam unless diven well. Tend to roll a bit at anchor and aren't great on the drift as they have no real keel to keep them steady (sometimes a little dinky one helps for low speed stuff and drifting.

Catherdral Hull: Fast, but slams like hell in any form of sea, even when the speed is reduced. But, very stable at anchor (hull may slap a bit) acting much like a pontoon. Simialr to a planing hull o the drift.

Semi Displacement: Medium speed (it reaches the plane, but doesn't go like a rocket), but when driven well will go through almost any sea in a modicum of comfort. The lack of top speed puts some owners off these boats.
Sits between planing hull and cathedral hull at anchor, very good on the drift due to the fairly pronounced keel being held in the tide. Tends to drift at 45 degres to the wind whereas the other too can spin a little.

Personally. Whilst I tend to do a 60 to 100 mile day offshore on my boat, I have opted for the slightly slower semi displacement style hull as it is better overall way offshore in a heavy sea, it drifts well and most of my fishing is on the drift and it is very well behaved in tight spaces around a marina.

Tom

 

[hotrodtodd]

Cheers, planing hull is what I meant. Thanks for the advice.

 

[David N]

Its early days yet but i'm coming round to Tom's way of hull thinking with my Hog. Great wee boat, a doddle to launch, fast and sits well at speed if you want it, good room for its size. (a Shortie) (questionably stable at anchor?) Bounces around at anchor and it rocks and rolls to the point I get a bit queezy. Annoying as I have never been seasick since I was a teenager despite being in boats fishing in all weathers, all my life since then.
As I say early days because every time I have been out the weather and sea has been pretty poor and mostly very lumpy, so may be a bit premature in judging it.
After a full summer in it I'll be making my mind up whether she stays or goes and I look at replacing it.
Dave.

 

[Pelamid]

Question for Tom:
In which category would you put this 161/2 ft hull shape.

Please don't state the obvious - Scruffy Wreck - but maybe it's boats that look like their owners!

 

[TomBettle]

Ooooooh now let me see.

This is quite tricky as camera angles can be deceiving, but....

Full displacement rear end with a couple of little scoopy type sponsoons at either side to give a bit more stability.
No chines as such to get it on the plane (this is not an issue, simply she's a little primative, however she does have quite a nice vee forward.

I woud hazard a guess that she is a semi displacement hull, but would benefit from having a little bit more of a keel under neath and maybe a chine running aft from just above the waterline at the bow. She would also love to have those little sponsoony things extended forward and given just the slightest lip on them (to create a mini gulwing - only tiny, not enough to induce slam). The problem with the rounded hull at the transom is that if she did ever get up and plane then she would have little grip in turns, what little there was would come from the tiny keel.

Although I state semi displacement and point out pontetial ways to give her more planing ability I would also say that she could be very easily be given the full displacement treatment. Stick a couple of bilge keels on her, extend the centre keel to give it more depth and then bung a little 25Hp inboard diesel in her and she's make a great little launch.

Tom

PS: It does look like you have a reasonably big outboard on there which leads me to think she does get up and go. If she does, I would guess she isn't bad in a chop ina straight line, but not great in any turns. she'll have a habit of needing slightly more power than normal to keep her planing and when she does slip off the plane she'll wallow and take the best part of WOT to get up again.

 

[Pelamid]

Its early days yet but i'm coming round to Tom's way of hull thinking with my Hog. Great wee boat, a doddle to launch, fast and sits well at speed if you want it, good room for its size. (a Shortie) (questionably stable at anchor?) Bounces around at anchor and it rocks and rolls to the point I get a bit queezy. Annoying as I have never been seasick since I was a teenager despite being in boats fishing in all weathers, all my life since then.
As I say early days because every time I have been out the weather and sea has been pretty poor and mostly very lumpy, so may be a bit premature in judging it.
After a full summer in it I'll be making my mind up whether she stays or goes and I look at replacing it.
Dave.

I have had both the Seahog Hunter and Sea Jeep.
Both were great for single handed launching and could be launched in inches of water.
In the short choppy waves you often get at Dunbar I spent most of my time kneeling (not to pray) as it was uncomfortable to stand. They also have a hard time driven into the waves - you have to take each wave at an angle otherwise they bury the nose. Need to be gentle on the throttle.
My replacement is more seaworthy no- PLEASE don't laugh - but heavier and needs a bigger trailer. Some of the places I used to launch I have not the confidence to try recently.
It's a compromise and you need to consider what is the main use the boat will get.

 

[TomBettle]

It's a compromise and you need to consider what is the main use the boat will get.

Good comment Pelamid.

Every boat is a compromise and not one is perfect (OK mine are almost perfect :clap2: ).

There are pros and cons to all of them and each has an advantage over the other, just as much as it will also have a disadvantage too.

I've just bought a little 2.7m inflatable and 4Hp engine to help teach my duaghter to drive a boat. That was the excuse anyway. Before it was even launched I have fitted rod holders.
The point being this little 2.7m thing is great in an around the harbour in flat calm conditions. Brilliant for sneaking silently up on Bass, but it is next to useless in any waves at all. But then my 23 foot Merry Fisher 695 is no use at all at drifting across the reed beds or bouncing around the piles in the marina, but it wil take me across to Alderney whenever I want.

Tom

 

[Pelamid]

Ooooooh now let me see.

This is quite tricky as camera angles can be deceiving, but....

Full displacement rear end with a couple of little scoopy type sponsoons at either side to give a bit more stability.
No chines as such to get it on the plane (this is not an issue, simply she's a little primative, however she does have quite a nice vee forward.

I woud hazard a guess that she is a semi displacement hull, but would benefit from having a little bit more of a keel under neath and maybe a chine running aft from just above the waterline at the bow. She would also love to have those little sponsoony things extended forward and given just the slightest lip on them (to create a mini gulwing - only tiny, not enough to induce slam). The problem with the rounded hull at the transom is that if she did ever get up and plane then she would have little grip in turns, what little there was would come from the tiny keel.

Although I state semi displacement and point out pontetial ways to give her more planing ability I would also say that she could be very easily be given the full displacement treatment. Stick a couple of bilge keels on her, extend the centre keel to give it more depth and then bung a little 25Hp inboard diesel in her and she's make a great little launch.

Tom

PS: It does look like you have a reasonably big outboard on there which leads me to think she does get up and go. If she does, I would guess she isn't bad in a chop ina straight line, but not great in any turns.

Spot on Tom,
It's an old Vimar 504, semi-displacement hull rated for up to 60HP.(not available new now)
I have a 50 Tohatsu TLDI on it and it does 30mph two up and I had 31.8 mph(GPS) on my own.

If I am making a point of sorts it is that curved surfaces do not always mean displacement hull. If I had only seen the hull I would have thought 15 mph and 30HP max.
For anyone new to fast angling boats they may presume that flat surfaces or cathedral/gull wing shapes are required.
I think Bonwitco are about the only manufacturer of small fast angling boats with some curves still.

You will notice those "little sponsoony things" do extend right to the bows - and they do have a v.slight downturn.
Well done that man:clap3:

 

[TomBettle]

Pelamid

The vee at the bow gives it away.
A nice little feature is the tiny reverse scoops at the transom. These will act like mini trim tabs and give the stern some lift, however a modern version would have a couple of chines running fore to aft to help lift her onto the plane and keep her there.

How does she handle in high speed turns with the curved bum?
Does she slide a little or does that little tiny keel bite?
Does she fall off the plane reasonable easily? This is where chines and more of a profile aft would help.

 

[Pelamid]

This boat gets up on the plane very easily - though with 3 adults and a stack of gear a gentle hand is required on the throttle or the prop cavitates.

On moderate fast turns she grips well - I have not noticed any appreciable slide.
I have not had the nerve to try really high speed turns or emergency stops.

Did some of those in RIBs on the advanced power boat course - good fun. Tried it in my Seajeep with my wife and sister-in-law on board and nearly sh*t myself. Sorry EX-wife!

Vimar comes off the plane very quickly but only needs about half throttle to keep about 16 knots planing. Economical combination - I think about 6 mpg - better than my last oufit anyway.

Must get the boat sorted now. Weather looks good for east coast tomorrow.

 

[David N]

I have had both the Seahog Hunter and Sea Jeep.
Both were great for single handed launching and could be launched in inches of water.
In the short choppy waves you often get at Dunbar I spent most of my time kneeling (not to pray) as it was uncomfortable to stand. They also have a hard time driven into the waves - you have to take each wave at an angle otherwise they bury the nose. Need to be gentle on the throttle.
My replacement is more seaworthy no- PLEASE don't laugh - but heavier and needs a bigger trailer. Some of the places I used to launch I have not the confidence to try recently.
It's a compromise and you need to consider what is the main use the boat will get.

Yes you have nailed it there. I had a nice but old and battered waterlogged seat that I threw out and fitted a plastic chair top. It was good to sit instead of standing and fighting for balance all the time. Mistake! The old seat was soft and ironed out a lot of the bumping and was okay to sit on at anchor. The new version just made it worse and was not pleasant to sit on and has just been dumped and a new nice soft one with a back rest ordered.

Have you ever tried a drogue or sea anchor to steady things? I was thinking about trying something like that.
Dave.

 

[Pelamid]

I bought a drogue as used by trout anglers - still in its bag(unopened).

In the past I have driven off with a keepnet over the side (lost) and even with the anchor still down! My fishing buddy had come loaded with Newcastle Brown. It was a hot, flat calm and fishless day so I drank two bottles (first and last alcohol drink in a boat). Fortunately it was only an 8 hp engine and nothing dramatic happened.

Think you can see why I never used the drogue.

I think in choppy waves they may collapse - perhaps a bucket as a drogue? - or just the anchor rope with a chain dragging bottom might help?

Hotrodtodd - sorry that got off your original question. As you have read there is no absolute 'best' hull shape.
The main questions for me would be : Where will I launch the boat?
What sort of seas am I likely to be out in?
How far will I have to motor the boat?
How many people to carry?

There are plenty more questions. I picked semi-displacement (planing with big engine), it will fish 2/3 easily. I also could not afford one of the modern styles that would do the same job.

 

[David N]

Hi Drogues work fine when I'm Loch style trout drifting. You can tether it were you want and control the angle the boat drifts at. But that's a much smaller boat in usually calmer conditions than at sea.
I'll check it out sometime soon though.
Dave.

 

[Pelamid]

If you use the anchor rope and chain dragging bottom do NOT tie it off to the side, transom cleat! Only the bow.

Sure you accepted that but just in case anyone new tries. If the chain snags and the anchor rope is tied to the side of the boat the wind/waves/tide may well pull the boat down!

 

[David N]

Not sure how we got from drogues to dragging chains on the bottom Pel? but I wouldnt dream of trying that one.
Freshwater drogues are basically a small parachute with a hole in the top to let the water flow through and tethered by a cord. They are good for when the wind is blowing the boat too fast over the area you are fishing, to let the Trout see the cast of flies before you run over them (the flies) with the boat
Dave.

 

[TomBettle]

David
I kind of know where Pel is coming from.

You use a drogue to allow the boat to drift beam on when normally it would be 45 degreesish to the wind.
There are a number of situations in sea fishing when we drag a weight to slow down our drift. This has the habit of allowing you to drift / drag with the bow into the tide. Pelamid was suggesting not to try and drift beam on by using the midship cleats to tie of the dragged weight. Just use the bow cleat.

 

[David N]

David
I kind of know where Pel is coming from.

You use a drogue to allow the boat to drift beam on when normally it would be 45 degreesish to the wind.
There are a number of situations in sea fishing when we drag a weight to slow down our drift. This has the habit of allowing you to drift / drag with the bow into the tide. Pelamid was suggesting not to try and drift beam on by using the midship cleats to tie of the dragged weight. Just use the bow cleat.

Hi Tom, Geting way off the hull topic here..........but yes I did follow that okay. But it got off the actual question I was asking. A freshwater drogue does exactly the same thing to angle the boat in the correct position for the drift. Normally in trout drifting there are two anglers casting out 90 degree to the boat. By drogueing from the rowlock for instance you drift the boat at the correct angle for both anglers to present the flies correctly downwind from the same side which is now sitting beam on down the drift.
When I'm on my own I drogue from the bow, This allows me to cover water right round the boat 180 degrees or more when facing to the rear, wind at back.

So there is an application for drift fishing in a small boat I think to counteract the sail effect of the cuddy which seems to always be down wind and not in the best position for drift fishing. (or to get shelter) Attaching a droque to the bow or to a cleat at either side just down from the bow would present the boat stern end or at an angle down wind/tide for instance. You collapse the drogue and bring it in before motoring off to a new drift.

The main reason though I posed the drogue question was not for drifting but to try some way to tame the rocking at anchor which the hog is prone too. Which makes me annoyingly queezy. (Ive not got round to pills or remedies yet. As I said I don't normally get seasick.) It may have been confusing the way I put it and may be the reason It kind of got off that point in Pels answer.

Pel try your unused drogue. It will not collapse if deployed correctly it sits like an open top parachute in the current just under the surface. A drogue presents a much larger surface area to the water. A dustbin size bucket with a hole in the bottom to let a flow throough iy would work though. But a drogue is light easy to store, can be collapsed quicly and is easy to bring back to the boat.

All that lot clear as mud?

Dave.

 

[loftyd]

Hi Pelamid,
Was that you I saw out of Dunbar this morning? There was a Vimar scooted past me as I was sorting out the gear just off the Yetts - I was in a Blue/white Warrior 165.

Did you get anything much further out - I found it fairly slow apart from one good pollock, with more ling than anything else. First mackerel of the season though.

Regards,
Doug

 

[bigdev]

Tom what kind of hull is on my 16ft bonwitco fast fisherman....