You can moor your boat anywhere in Drummore "harbour" and it will not cost you a penny.

You will be approached by one of the two owners of the pier and asked to pay a fee. You do not have to pay them anything.
This has been proved in in The Edinburgh High Court firstly, about a hundred years ago when the then Lord Stair owner of the Pier took the local fishermen to the Court to try and secure payment.

The above Judgement was cited in the Sheriff's Court in Stranraer about eighteen months ago, when the present owners tried to collect "harbour dues" from a local boat owner. The case was dismissed in favour of the boat owner.

Until the "Harbour" is entitled as a harbour by Parliment no one can be charged "Harbour Dues".

I have kept my boat in the "harbour" for a few weeks a year when I'm up there, and originally thought that I would make a donation to the owners to help with the upkeep.
Due to the downright arrogance and manners of one of the owner I decided against the idea.

Recently D&G C.C. circulated a questionaire was to all house holder in the village asking thier opinions over the future of the "harbour". the results can be seen here.

http://rpu.dumgal.gov.uk/xpedio/groups/public/documents/committee_reports/018213.pdf


11. Key Issues
1 1.1 Drummore harbour was constructed in the early part of the 19th Century to
serve a lime manufacturing industry. In the 187Os, the Earl of Stair attempted to
charge harbour dues and in an important legal case, the Court of Sessions ruled
that, in effect, as Drummore was not a statutory harbour no dues could be charged.

Extracted from the above document.

So don't pay anyone anything

 

The harbour is private property and you d have to pay.

 

:secret: You do not have to pay any charges or dues to moor a boat within the confines of Drummore "harbour" or pay any charges or dues to put a permanent mooring in for a boat on the causeway.

This has been proven three times in Court.

 

Not sure of the present situation, Manxman is correct in what he states ( or was.) As in July this year Dumfries and Galloway Council decided to seek an empowerment order under the harbours act. To allow the council to take over the harbour land and operation of Drummore harbour.

 

I'm sure that D&G Council have not applied for Empowerment to create a Harbour.

In July they published this document after the local consultation.

http://rpu.dumgal.gov.uk/xpedio/groups/public/documents/committee_reports/018213.pdf

It's not very long and is worth reading. The impression the document gives me is that the Council don't want to take it over because of the costs.
The present owners don't have the money to run it as a harbour because of the desperate need to dredge the whole basin and H/S regs, costs would be horrendous for anyone wishing to do so.

Also anyone noticed that the lights on the pier aren't on at night anymore? perhaps the electricty bill hasn't been paid allegedly

 

we moored our boat at Drummore boat club up until the boatshed was sold and everybody was told we had to move our boats. The cost then, to join the boat club, was £50 per year. But if the harbour is free, I might take it back there. I was thinking of keeping it at Portpatrick cos it's so much easier than trailing it about. Does anybody know the charges for Portpatrick? The boat is 18ft if that's any help.

 

The harbour is oversubscribed and the waiting list is closed.Only way to get in is to buy a boat that is already there.Any offers?

 

But if it's free, why is there a waiting list? Surely you just take your boat and moor it.

PS.
Sorry, just thought, wibblywobbly, did you mean Portpatrick or Drummore?

 

Portpatrick,couldnt tell you about drumore as ive never used that harbour.

 

Alec, Kirkmaiden boat club was disbanded a couple of years ago, they also had no right to charge anyone, they also took a local boat owner to court and lost.

Turn up put your mooring in free!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Donot believe people who say mooring charges can not be levied in Drummore.

Strongly suggest you look at Crown Estates web site and RYA site
(MOORING LAW).

a CHARGE CAN BE LEVIED IF THE FORESHORE OR SEA BED IS PRIVATELEY OWNED .
THERE ARE LEGAL CASES IN COURTS A LOT HIGHER THAN A SHERRIFS COURT .
Perhaps the Manxman would like to give his name and address so legal action can be taken..

 

Perhaps Suns you ought to do a bit of research yourself if you doubt my word, first of would be to read this document published by D&G Council.

http://rpu.dumgal.gov.uk/xpedio/groups/public/documents/committee_reports/018213.pdf

Perhaps you then would consider a walk around Drummore and ask people with boats moored there how much they have to pay legally, finally some research at the Edinburgh Court of Sessions may prove valuable, the judgement of this Court has been cited twice since, when firstly Kirkmaiden boat club took a local boat owner to court to try to make him pay harbour dues.
The most recent case about eighteen months ago, the present owners of the Pier took the same local to court and lost thier case. The Edinburgh Court of Sessions judgement set the precedent.

You cannot be charged harbour dues for a harbour that doesn't exist.

The present owners like those previously, don't own the harbour only the Pier that Lord Stair built plus the narrow strip of grass adjoining the road from the gate at the pier end, to as far as the mill race.

As you "Donot believe people who say mooring charges can not be levied in Drummore"

Get yourself a copy of the original Edinburgh Court Of Session Judgement and READ it, all the information and plans are easily available.

Then ask me for my name and address, or if you really want to find out quicker just ask in the Clash after me.:yawn:

 

Hiya,

the definition of "mooring" needs clarified here.

To put a fixed mooring (anchor,rope and buoy not connected to land) on the sea bed, you need a licence from Crown Estates or what ever mooring association have the rights to that are.

however if you put the same in and connect it to the shore via a running line you do not need the licence.

 

Hiya Davy, if Suns had a look at the moorings on the causeway he'd see that they are all running moorings.

 

Hiya Davy, if Suns had a look at the moorings on the causeway he'd see that they are all running moorings.

I find it absolutely amazing that people who sat back and wondered what would happen to the "harbour" when the MoD decided to dispose of the asset can be so aggressive towards those who got up off of their backsides and brought the whole package together for the community, I take it they so green with envy they will attempt anything to destroy the future of the community. I would like to ask Manxman what his reasons are for this malicious attack on the owners (TRUSTEES) of Drummore Harbour Trust, a fully recognised Charity in Scotland.
The trust owns Drummore Bay, the Basin and the pier, there is only one boat on the Causeway on a running Mooring, the rest are permanent. The whole argument is quite irrelevant, THE BAY AND FORESHORE INCLUDING THE BASIN FROM SPRING HIGH TO SPRING LOW TIDES IS NOW THE PRIVATE PROPERTY OF DRUMMORE HARBOUR TRUST, THIS FACT CAN BE VERIFIED AT THE LAND REGISTRY OFFICE.
Davy Holt, Please read the RYA and Crown Estates Reports on test cases held in the Scottish Courts. If the mooring is permanent no matter how access to the vessel is obtained then the owner is obligated, by law, to pay the property owners any charges levied..
Manxman you have again stated an untruth, the Kirkmaiden Boat club is alive albeit inactive.

 

Davy Holt, Please read the RYA and Crown Estates Reports on test cases held in the Scottish Courts. If the mooring is permanent no matter how access to the vessel is obtained then the owner is obligated, by law, to pay the property owners any charges levied..

Well what can I say.. as an owner of a fixed mooring and also a mooring with a running line my info came from crown estates (got nothing to do with the RYA). I pay for the fixed mooring but am not required to pay for the mooring with the running line on it and that was from the horses mouth so to speak

it's also the same if you just moor your boat with an over sized anchor, so long as you remove it when you move your boat then their is no requirement to pay Crown estates

 

Davy and Manxman oshould i say john.

Fact, before any mooring is laid on a foreshore or the sea bed, permission has to be obtained from the Scottish Parliment under section 34 of the coast protection act.
Fact the mooring authority at Drummore is Drummore Harbour Trust.
Fact the boats on the causeway are attached by permanent moorings to the fundus of the harbour at one end and attached to land ie the causeway at the other , the causeway is owned by D H T .

The sea bed in the harbour area and Drummore Bay is privateley owned
by D H T. The Crown estates have no authority.,

The council at the request of Kirkmaiden community council have been asked to take a H E O out on the harbour .
The council have no intention of developing the harbour but would have an automatic right to charge and control.The people of Kirkmaiden where conned..

 

Davy and Manxman orshould i say john crebbin.

Fact, before any mooring is laid on a foreshore or the sea bed, permission has to be obtained from the Scottish Parliment under section 34 of the coast protection act.
Fact the mooring authority at Drummore is Drummore Harbour Trust.
Fact the boats on the causeway are attached by permanent moorings to the fundus of the harbour at one end and attached to land ie the causeway at the other , the causeway is owned by D H T .

The sea bed in the harbour area and Drummore Bay is privateley owned
by D H T. The Crown estates have no authority.,

The council at the request of Kirkmaiden community council have been asked to take a H E O out on the harbour .
The council have no intention of developing the harbour but would have an automatic right to charge and control.The people of Kirkmaiden where conned..
And you are also telling lies about what DHT own.

 

Hello harbourowner and welcome to the forum. Now we have a proper harbour owner on the forum perhaps we will benefit from your experiences as a harbour owner.

Could you expand a bit on your comment?
“I find it absolutely amazing that people who sat back and wondered what would happen to the "harbour" when the MoD decided to dispose of the asset can be so aggressive towards those who got up off of their backsides and brought the whole package together for the community”

I can’t for the life of me find anything aggressive in any of the posts so far.

What I will say is that the Pier which was sold to Drummore Harbour Trust Limited was not put up for sale by open tender, in fact it seems it was a done deal, before most people knew it was for sale..
Perhaps you’d like to comment on what exactly has Drummore Harbour Trust Limited actually done to improve the facilities about the Pier. I for one have seen none, except for when some members of the Drummore Angling Club got into the basin and cleared a lot of rubbish out. Not the owners of Drummore Harbour Trust Limited.
As for bringing the whole package together, how has the community benefited so far?

Your comment
“I take it they so green with envy they will attempt anything to destroy the future of the community”

I am definitely not green with envy; in fact I wouldn’t even consider taking Drummore harbour as a gift.
What type of businessman would buy a rundown old pier for £1000 :00, that he couldn’t charge people to tie alongside of, not a very wise one in my estimation.
As for attempting to destroy the future of the community I have invested in the community, I also support the local shop and the post office, I spend a few bob supporting the pubs in the village, and my vehicle is always serviced in the local garage.

“The trust owns Drummore Bay, the Basin and the pier, there is only one boat on the Causeway on a running Mooring, the rest are permanent. The whole argument is quite irrelevant, THE BAY AND FORESHORE INCLUDING THE BASIN FROM SPRING HIGH TO SPRING LOW TIDES IS NOW THE PRIVATE PROPERTY OF DRUMMORE HARBOUR TRUST, THIS FACT CAN BE VERIFIED AT THE LAND REGISTRY OFFICE”

The trust owns Drummore Bay as well now? They’ll be claiming mineral rights on the Scares next :huh::huh:

The whole argument is quite irrelevant,

Not too the original poster of this thread it’s not. As it stands no one can be charged legally for mooring a boat off the causeway or for tying a boat to the pier both cases have been legally proven.

My apologies to the Kirkmaiden Boat Club I was led to believe they had disbanded, perhaps you may know how many actual paid up members they have at present?


To progress, as a Harbour owner what would be your plans if you owned Drummore Harbour. Would you have the basin and the entrance dredged, a very expensive operation if it was done properly to allow longer access, either side of high water. The last occasion that it was dredged, while in the ownership of Drummore Harbour Trust Limited the local fishermen secured the funds for the operation to take place so as to be able to carry out their employment.

Would you build a shower block and toilets for visiting boat owners? That would be a good idea as the present owners are supposedly going to install pontoon berths for two hundred boats!!!!!!!!!!!!!!. Now who would pay to moor their boat on a pontoon in a harbour that dries out I wonder.
But it’s all supposition really as you cannot be charged harbour dues as the “harbour” is not entitled as a harbour, and can only be done so by Parliament.

 

Manxman,The original post was for information on how to contact Drummore Harbour re-moorings. As you have nothing to do with the Harbour, why did you reply in such a negative fashion? Your reply was aggressive and malicious to the future of Drummore Harbour and therefore the community.
It is a pity that you did not attend the public meeting held in Drummore on the 19th December 2004, had you done so, or come to the Directors/Trustees you would I hope have offered your services and assistance. Listening to Bar Room Lawyers, being taken in by them and then acting on their ramblings is very sad.
Get a copy of the Articles of Association and Memorandum of Association for Drummore Harbour Trust Ltd and you will see that neither of the Directors/Trustees can make any monies from this project. The green with envy refers to people who are furious that others did what they feel was reserved as their God Given Right as locals. Something good for the community was coming into being and they could not claim any glory by being involved. Envy is a dreadful affliction.
The Trust does own Drummore Bay, the Causeway,the Basin and the pier. The bar room Lawyers got it wrong again.
Planned progress, everything was revealed at the 2004 meeting, I presume that the bar room lawyers are amongst those who walked out when asked to keep any questions to the end.
The name Harbour is just a name, what about Drummore Marina or Drummore Yacht Haven, does a name really matter, and, what new problems would you try to use to stop us?
Both of the Directors/Trustees would never have gone near the Harbour as a private enterprise,but because of their business backgrounds saw the potential for its future development if large amounts of funding could be raised, hence the Charitable status, where it was to be a community project. Alas, because of all of the aggression, violence. vandalism, destruction of property and last but not least threats to our lives we find it very difficult to trust any-ones motives towards the Trust and Trustees. If you are serious about finding out what our plans are then please feel free to knock on my door introduce yourself, and I will be more than happy to give you the true facts. It is usually the only way to get at the truth.

 

"Harbourowner"", Is that a self-bestowed title to make you feel important?
I attended the meeting in 2004 and it was decided before the meeting that the locals would have no input into the meeting or have no say in what was to happen to their harbour. I am a Drummore local,born and bred and I've been in Drummore a lot longer than any of the so-called trustees. Wouldn't a "TRUSTEE", by it's very title, have the benefit of the harbour in mind, the trustees have(or had) profit in mind. The harbour was never put up for sale by the MOD.It was sold before any local even knew it was for sale. How much did the trust pay for Drummore bay? Will you start charging any boat who happens to be fishing and strays into "YOUR BAY"
I have done a bit of research over the last couple of days and I happen to think that manxman(no need to put his name up on the internet) is correct in what he has written. I also think he was right to explain to the original poster that their is no need to pay. If the original poster had aked the "HARBOUROWNER" the same question, how much would you have told him he has to pay to moor his boat in your harbour, or anywhere in your bay for that matter?

 

i dont think manxmans post was malicious or aggressive,its been a few months since ive stood at the "harbour"and it looks sad and neglected,just an outsiders view ,but what i would like to know is how can anyone buy a "bay",how do you know where the limits are ,do you rope it off and put signs up sayin private property,,,:huh:

 

why not put your boat in the port harbour or stranraer there proper harbours and you know your boat will be safe

 

Apparently Portpatrick's oversubscribed, and I'm not surprised. If you look at Portpatrick and Drummore Harbours, it wouldn't take long to decide. Drummore harbour has been neglected since the so-called TRUSTEES realised that they wouldn't be making a profit from it. They've obviously decided, "No profit, no input". And this from TRUSTEES, who claimed to have the harbour and the local community at heart.
We're still waiting for the answer to my last question to "Harbourowner"
HOW MUCH WOULD YOU HAVE TOLD THE ORIGINAL POSTER IT WOULD COST TO MOOR HIS BOAT AT YOUR HARBOUR, OR ANYWHERE IN YOUR BAY?

Ryan, you have a pm.

 

alec, you seem to have conveniently forgotten the real facts.
under the M.o.D.m nothing was done except essential repairs, paid for by Government funds, the gates were locked, no vehicle access was permitted. Now it belongs to the Trust and vehicle access is guaranteed to all who pay. No repairs or improvements can be carried out since people like you seem to think using it for nothing puts money in the bank for repairs, NO INCOME NO REPAIRS OR MAINTENENCE. I find your determined accusations about the integrity of the TRUSTEES is getting close to being slanderous. The public were given the opportunity to voice their concerns, desires and proposals. You must have forgotten that the residents were asked to form groups from all areas, i.e. Business, Anglers, Commercial Fishermen, Users, and the PUBLIC, to elect a spokesperson to create a committee to assist in obtaining funds for improvements and development of the harbour assist in running it. The fact that there is no lighting on the pier is due to the recent vandalism of the electric supply box. In the interest of public safety we have had to have the supplies disconnected. If you know who carried out this sick attack on the supply box please advise them that if they wish to supply a new box or repair the current one and are willing to pay for the supply to be reconnected, we will be pleased to assist in any way.