Yeah, basically you understand the term correct, but it helps to understand why.
Essentially, if a weight is hanging off the end of your horizontal rod, and you raise the rod upwards in an arc over your head, you are feeling that weight immediately, and it is acting to bend your rod.
The weight is at 90' to the rod tip.

Swing it away from you just before you raise it, and you feel it more.
That is outside the rod tip, or over 90'

However, if you swing the weight towards you just before you raise the rod, there is now slack because the weight is nearly weightless. Your rod isn't immediately being loaded.
That is inside the tip, less than 90'.

Essentially it is better to steadily load your rod in the pendulum cast.


Just to confuse you, there are casts that do start with rod inside the tip - Brighton cast being one - but the mechanics for that are slightly different.
In that cast, the weight immediately swings outside the tip, so the rod feels weightless at first but then is very rapidly loaded as the sinker accelerates outside the tip, and into an arc. Much harsher.
Think of the trebuchet for that.


Hard to explain, but hope that goes some way?

 

So, to clarify what you are saying, you need to get the weight swinging ^^^UP^^^ past the rod tip in the inswing prior to rotation [of any amount] hence HIGH SWING pendulum.

 

Basically the lead will always try to follow the largest arc thus it will also be travelling at the fastest speed. If you chop the cast or power in too early you are pulling the lead out of it's natural path. If you can catch that sweet spot you basically keep that lead in it's natural path as long as possible.
It makes the cast feel effortless and distance will be increased without you having to do much other than keep in touch and accelerate the lead away at the end.
One thing you will notice with all the biggest casters is the lead takes a huge arc, even things like using a longer rod and keeping the arms away from the body help increase this arc.

Sounds simple but to do it consistently takes great timing and skill.

The natural path of lead to tip will always be around 90deg to the tip so try and make the most of it and make life easy for yourself.

 

Thank you for your reply , all makes sense to me re getting the lead to follow the biggest arc possible to increase lead speed , i have sensed that effortless sensation once where everything came together where the lead sailed away , was a great feeling where you could feel the whole rod working effortlessly , thank you for your tips/ input

 

Will meet up with you and show you matey sorry haven’t been able to meet up sooner casting has taken a back seat but I no a bit that could help you out

 

Yeah, basically you understand the term correct, but it helps to understand why.
Essentially, if a weight is hanging off the end of your horizontal rod, and you raise the rod upwards in an arc over your head, you are feeling that weight immediately, and it is acting to bend your rod.
The weight is at 90' to the rod tip.

Swing it away from you just before you raise it, and you feel it more.
That is outside the rod tip, or over 90'

However, if you swing the weight towards you just before you raise the rod, there is now slack because the weight is nearly weightless. Your rod isn't immediately being loaded.
That is inside the tip, less than 90'.

Essentially it is better to steadily load your rod in the pendulum cast.


Just to confuse you, there are casts that do start with rod inside the tip - Brighton cast being one - but the mechanics for that are slightly different.
In that cast, the weight immediately swings outside the tip, so the rod feels weightless at first but then is very rapidly loaded as the sinker accelerates outside the tip, and into an arc. Much harsher.
Think of the trebuchet for that.


Hard to explain, but hope that goes some way?

Thankyou for taking the time to reply , yes i am familiar with the brighton cast where the lead starts off inside the tip to then rapidly load upon acceleration , my main aim is to get that lead in the right position to apply power whilst the lead is arielised , thanks for you input

 

So, to clarify what you are saying, you need to get the weight swinging ^^^UP^^^ past the rod tip in the inswing prior to rotation [of any amount] hence HIGH SWING pendulum.

Yes correct , but need to work on pushing the left hand out/down to direct the lead in an arc to then apply power at the end , thanks for your input

 

Indeed, on another thread, Den mentioned that getting the in outswing and height was critical; if nothing else getting this consistently into muscle memory actually sets the cast up, when you can do it blindfolded and by feel, time after time, then basically you've cracked 70% of the cast without thinking about it!

And we all know what happens when you start to think about it lol!!

 

In the very early days of the pendulum I do remember when demonstrating the pendulum to a photographer, I actually made what was probably the longest cast I had done to date, several yards further than usual. I asked him if he had noticed anything different about that cast and he said I started the cast when the lead was stationary at the top of the inswing.
And so I started to try to feel for this moment, and it soon became quite easy to "feel" when the lead had stopped swinging.

Basically what it amounts to is knowing where to start and where you want to finish, and if you do that then the rest is easy​

The other important aspect was to "hit it as hard as possible from the start" to get the rod bent with the lead at about 90deg to the butt.



Worked for me and a lot of pupils as well

Den

 

Fantastic ! A real moment of brilliance in the world of pendulum casting imagine a photographer telling you and it's amazing being observant enough to tell you that the lead was stationery on top of the inswing !
This is what pendulum casting is all about in one word - TIMING !
Den what a brilliant explanation
Happy New year buddy.!

 

Hi TG, the aim was to start the cast when the lead had reached the top of the inswing., and above head height. I used to spend a considerable amount of time with "pupils" to get them to feel for that moment when the lead became "weightless".

After many many hours practising and honing the action, I ( and George) were able to make slight adjustments to the start of the cast. It helped that we stood quite close and were watching each other, sometimes for several hours a day.

Generally speaking, it seemed that if the lead failed to reach the desired apex then the lead hit the ground, if it went past the apex (swung to hard) then the lead got "outside of the tip"

You have to take in to account that we were using 11ft 6inch glass fibre rods which I think would be considered fairly soft these days and half way through the cast the rod was pretty well wrapped around you

A couple of grainy old pics to illustrate what I mean...………..



Den

 

Having the lead pause is very old school. A lot of the newer styles make use of a moving lead and just turning it over.

Best advice is get along to a casting event. There are many variations of pendulum cast and it's all about finding one to suit you, your build and tackle.

 

Having the lead pause is very old school. A lot of the newer styles make use of a moving lead and just turning it over.

Best advice is get along to a casting event. There are many variations of pendulum cast and it's all about finding one to suit you, your build and tackle.

Whilst going to a casting event seems to be the default answer, finding a variant of the pendulum that suits your build is certainly not "old skool"....:Oo:

 

A couple of grainy old pics to illustrate what I mean...………..

Great sequence of pics there DEN,
the grainy finish does take you back reminds me of our old family caravan holidays to Looe and day trips Dawlish.

 

i have found that Den's approach to setting up the lead very useful especially on sloping beaches,much less chance of hitting the ground.with the suspension of the lead,for me just above the rod tip; it gives me time to set the rod on the correct plane.getting the rod down early is easier if you don't have to worry about the lead charging over the top then blasting it into the beach and that little pause Den is talking about would help a lot of casters who rush the cast.when i started out i was told to do a ground cast but hang a pendulum on it,pretty much what Den is describing.not sure that it's old school,well maybe it is; like high reel casting that seems to have made a come back

 

My fishing cast is a very old school flat aerialised ground cast / pendulum. I was highlighting that today making use of a moving lead will potentially add additional distance and make casting some of the bigger leads on stiffer rods much easier.
Trying to pull a big lead thats paused loads a rod very well but can be hard work for the caster, why not make it easy?

 

What a fantastic thread.! - sure a moving lead does give you fantastic distance but the sensation of a paused or a stationery feel on top of an inswing is an unmistakable irreplaceable top of the world feel ! and this for me is one of the best parts of pendulum casting ! It takes ages to get it right and when I did get somewhere with it was a grand feeling.!
I mean it felt like the sinker disappeared !(even with 150grams) I actually mean total weightlessness ! Then you start your cast it is at this point that you begin to cast progressively and turn into cast and apply power and it all happens automatically and somehow its automatically progressive and smooth ! and then when you practise on the body rotation and add it all up into one fluid move its just addictive !
I do not dispute that you can equally hit and even get better distances with the low swing and moving lead but I'm don't compete on the field and I'm in this hobby to enjoy casting on a lesuirely basis so I love the challenges of the difficult type of pendulum(I'm in no way critising the low swing it's right up there I know.!)
For me to I try to make the cast last longer and one sure way is to swing the lead up high up there and wait for that heavenly pause or the lead abbacadabra vanishing lead feel.!
Just my opinion

 

Having the lead pause is very old school. A lot of the newer styles make use of a moving lead and just turning it over.

Agree.

 

There is another important phase of the cast, and that is the "follow through" You shouldn't actually stop the cast, but follow through. May sound daft, but if you have a stopping point, then you have to prepare for it, so try to keep the rod tip following the lead after release.
This follow through advice applies to all sports where throwing is used.

Den

 

This was something that I have tried and tried for a long time now, ie pendulum casting, but just have not been able to get to grips with.
Started out with an aerialised version of the Brighton cast. Then went on to try low swings, high swings, and both have ended up with the same thing. Either the lead going high and right, or literally heading straight for the horizon and into the drink 100ft in front of me lol. Yes, have been rotating from the hips, keeping the rod out away from the body, pulling round with the leaft hand until the final push/pull, and all of the other points ive picked up on over the years.
Something just doesnt click. Gave up in the end, and went with OTG casts with a nice long drop and a decent rotation of almost 3/4 turn, with the weight laid out so the line was parralel with shoreline, weight well outside the tip. Wasnt ideal, as i prefer to use bait clips to help protect baits and stop them flying off the hook.

Then, a while ago i was having a look through some you tube vids, and saw one showing a "Hatteras" cast. Basically just an outswing to get the weight up in the air and starting the cast stroke from there.
Adapted it so it starts with the lead in a similar position to an OTG cast with a decent length drop of about 8ft ish.
Im happy enough... It works for me, gives a decent distance, and is smoother than an aerialised Brighton cast so doesnt destroy soft baits.

 

There is another important phase of the cast, and that is the "follow through" You shouldn't actually stop the cast, but follow through. May sound daft, but if you have a stopping point, then you have to prepare for it, so try to keep the rod tip following the lead after release.
This follow through advice applies to all sports where throwing is used.

Den

Den, I freely admit that you know more than me, but I am not sure I entirely agree with that.
Hear me out.
I think you should only release the reel at the point you have slammed it to your chest, and the butt stops.
Rods unload with an abrupt stop. Lure rod, fly rod, and I believe also casting rods.
The stop is the trigger for that massive and sudden release of stored energy.

That said, I am of the belief the only 'follow through' possible is that of the tip recovering, and going beyond straight, simply because you should not be able to follow through with the butt, or rest of the rod, as it is already in its final position.

Feel free to argue this point and to change my mind on this.
Again, I make it clear I do not consider you wrong, or that I am definitely right, just that I state this as my belief.

 

Hi Lips, As always with the pendulum there are difficulties describing the actions needed. Apart from the various ways the lead can be swung or positioned there are also many variations of when to push,pull, start slow, start fast, endless combinations.

What I tried to teach is the simple pendulum I devised and it was the swinging of the lead that caused the name "pendulum" cast.
I have not pendulum cast for many years, never with a carbon rod and never with a fast multi with brakes and ball races and magnets so perhaps I should not get involved in any discussion on "how to do it" but...….. I think it is so easy to do if you get certain basics in place.

Now should also ad that I was never a "big guy" and relied on setting up the cast and then kicking off from the hips as hard and fast as I could, was never able to pull through and down with left hand (due to muscle deficiency) but when I advised George to "add a pull down" to the cast, then the lead screamed off MUCH faster, unfortunately with the inevitable overrun (no brakes or magnets) and the lead ending up over 250yds down the field.

What would he have achieved with modern tackle ??? or even just a magged reel.

Right now to the follow through you should not set a stop position in your mind. There is a point at which you release the lead (at the top?? ) but keep following through. with rod tip following the leads arc. Should be just another part of the whole casting action, and it helps to absorb some of the recoil of the rod tip.

I tried hard to describe the actions needed to cast a long way and used various little tips to help, but the best advice I can give is to not get to concerned with distance...get the start right, punch the lead up in to the clouds and the distance will come.

One of the posters on this topic complained of leads going left/right/ even smacking down in to the water in front of him. This simply tells me that he seems to have no idea just where he should be aiming, and requires a rethink of his basic aims. The pendulum is only difficult if you make it so...……..

Den

 

I guess its like a golf swing.

You don,t aim to stop after the ball is hit, but continue the athletic drive through the ball. I would liken the striking of the golf ball to the release of the reel. The drive through of the end of the cast just means that you are exerting maximum energy at the point of release and not winding down ?

I suppose you could also liken it to a boxers punch, a hammer throwers rotation and probably lots more examples.

 

Exactly Rob...you said it better than me

Den

 

I would say this -

The follow through on a golf club, or tennis racket or whatever, is still transferring force and momentum into the object, purely because the object is on the 'face'.

By contrast, as soon as you release the reel, because the object is being towed, the rod is able to transfer zero energy into the object, because it is acting against nothing. The reel would just be able to free spin at that point.

Surely?


In fly casting, the stored energy in the rod imparts energy that increases the velocity of the fly line by 10-20%.

I am of the opinion that, by only releasing the reel AFTER the rod has been brought to an abrupt stop after acceleration (from being slammed to chest) that the big casters are able to utilise that energy, and that this is what makes the difference for the record distances?
As I say, 10-20% more.

Whatever, I certainly think 'following through' when the object is not connected to the rod in any way, and therefore can not still have energy transferred to it, can add no benefit, beyond actually giving the line a straight path to follow.
It would different if the sinker was being launched from the 'face' of the rod.

 

I think you misunderstand me Ben

I know that once the ball is struck or the lead is released there is no way the follow through contributes any more energy or distance

What I believe the follow through does, is to to allow the object to be hit at the peak force of the stroke or the cast.

If you try and stop all the energy that you are building up for the hit immediately afterwards ( nearly impossible anyway ) then the real risk is that you release the lead or hit the ball on the deceleration to the stopping point.

 

Yeah, get that, but the peak force from a rod is delivered when it comes to a stop and releases all that stored energy, so different mechanics from punch, or racket?

Rob, I might be completely wrong on this.
I know we have discussed this before, but I just cannot shake my opinion off.

Because you get a bit more time in a fly cast, you are able to see the mechanics.
Accelerate steadily and smoothly, which loads the rod. Come to an abrupt halt, which releases that energy, and release the fly line.

If you release the fly line BEFORE coming to an abrupt stop, you lose a lot of the energy of the cast.

I really struggle with believing a casting rod doesn't act in exactly the same way.

I believe that, if you release the reel BEFORE your butt has hit your chest you essentially only have the energy already stored in the sinker. Now, I freely admit that is still circa 80-90% of the possible, and will still go a very decent distance.
However, by releasing the reel a fraction of a second AFTER butt has hit chest, you can get the rods energy too. The full 100%.

My opinion on the comparison of the fly cast vs the tournament cast is this-

In a fly cast you are loading the rod with the weight of the fly line which is always in a straight line. This is why its just the rod that is storing all of that energy and as you correctly say, the rod needs to be brought to a sudden stop to unload the rod and transfer that energy to project the flyline.

In a tournament cast the rod is not the only way of storing energy. Its tension in the line and the circular arc and speed of the lead that contain most of the energy. The rod is merely used as a lever and guide to allow that arc to be achieved ( as well as be a reasonable fishing rod too !!)

The 2 examples are really quite different

When I used to backcast a lot at tournaments and I was trying to improve, I used to watch a lot of hammer throwers and try and mimic their stance and rotation.

I also believe that its the reason they used to be able to cast over 200 yards with a bamboo pole !!

Even without a rod you could attach 3 ft of leader to a lead and swing it around your body and then release it and I would bet I could throw it 50 metres plus without any compression in a rod.

I know thats an extreme example but just trying to put over my belief about whats happening in the cast

Rob

 

Great post, Rob.

Much of it makes total sense, and I agree.

Even in a fly cast, the rod only adds 20% energy. You can cast very decent distances with a solid pole, or even with no rod at all. Amazingly, people can cast a damn fine distance with a fly line with just their hands.

As you say, just by using those other mechanics of the cast.

I think you are absolutely correct about that arc UNTIL the final action of the cast. In the final push and snap down with the left, I think the rod, with its ability to store energy and soften the forces, is able to pull the sinker out of its natural arc so that it follows the tip.

Essentially, what I am saying is this - in the hammer throw, the 'weight' is at 180' to the hands, in its fullest possible arc. All the energy is in the lead, acting outwards, and you are struggling to keep hold of it.
At the point of casting, the sinker as more like 90'. The energy from the sinker has been temporarily transferred to rod, and is pulling the tip backwards, not outwards?

Great food for thought, this, Rob.

Definitely makes one think. Cheers,

 

A lot of its just interpretation and guesswork I reckon

Be nice to have a physics scientist explain to us all about where the energy is stored and released in our casts

 

Be nice to know if the really big casters are releasing at the point of slamming the rod to a halt, or a fair bit before.
That would tell us.

If some video editing geniuses could slow down the footage on a Danny or Bustos cast?

 

A lot of its just interpretation and guesswork I reckon

Be nice to have a physics scientist explain to us all about where the energy is stored and released in our casts

Methinks energy is stored in:
a) speed of the sinker,
b) flexure of the rod,
c) elongation of the shockleader.

just after stopping adding more energy into the cast and just before the sinker flicks 180 degrees, the energy stored in b) and c) is released and some of this is added to a), some energy is lost in the bounce of the rod tip.

adding energy can be done by increasing the flexure of the rod and thus elongation of the leader and/or increasing the tip speed, and thus adding to the speed of the sinker.

Tight lines, lambert63