[Ravelling Tangler]

just reminded by the Dvice thread of a few examples where patents were & weren't a great help

1/ Dyson and his vacuum cleaner
Interestingly the vortex cleaner wasn't a new idea; applying it to domestic vaccum cleaners was. If Dyson had not had a small fortune (from his BallBarrow invention) he would not have been able to defend his patent in court (from the very same large firms who had shown no interest in it until he was successfully selling them).
He had the money, he was prepared to spend it on lawyers, his product is a very big success

2/ Breakaway &/or Gemini . Somebody (I'm sorry I forget whether it was Nigel Forrest or Tony Caton) did an interview in one of the Sea Angling magazines where he said they are no longer bothering to protect patents - with "offshore" copyrats and distribution systems like fleabay it is impractical to protect your profits on small items.
Instead they are concentrating on coming up with brand new ideas and moving quickly on after the first few hundred thousand sales to something else the "copyrats" haven't thought of yet.
It's just our good luck that they don't stop making things like the impact shield as soon as they have illegal (and often subtly inferior) competition

3/ that plastic 'valve' with a cross-cut in it in squeezable bottles (e.g. of honey or sauce). I remember hearing the woman who invented it for baby feed bottles saying how the established manufacturers turned her away, yet as soon as she had got through the slog of getting it stocked in places and it was selling well they simply copied it without any permission or consultation.
She just managed to protect her right, but only just.


So spare a thought for those inventors of little items of tackle who bring them to you - it's not all easy money (come to think of it , none of it is easy )

 

[OneCodBob]

just reminded by the Dvice thread of a few examples where patents were & weren't a great help

1/ Dyson and his vacuum cleaner
Interestingly the vortex cleaner wasn't a new idea; applying it to domestic vaccum cleaners was. If Dyson had not had a small fortune (from his BallBarrow invention) he would not have been able to defend his patent in court (from the very same large firms who had shown no interest in it until he was successfully selling them).
He had the money, he was prepared to spend it on lawyers, his product is a very big success

2/ Breakaway &/or Gemini . Somebody (I'm sorry I forget whether it was Nigel Forrest or Tony Caton) did an interview in one of the Sea Angling magazines where he said they are no longer bothering to protect patents - with "offshore" copyrats and distribution systems like fleabay it is impractical to protect your profits on small items.
Instead they are concentrating on coming up with brand new ideas and moving quickly on after the first few hundred thousand sales to something else the "copyrats" haven't thought of yet.
It's just our good luck that they don't stop making things like the impact shield as soon as they have illegal (and often subtly inferior) competition

3/ that plastic 'valve' with a cross-cut in it in squeezable bottles (e.g. of honey or sauce). I remember hearing the woman who invented it for baby feed bottles saying how the established manufacturers turned her away, yet as soon as she had got through the slog of getting it stocked in places and it was selling well they simply copied it without any permission or consultation.
She just managed to protect her right, but only just.


So spare a thought for those inventors of little items of tackle who bring them to you - it's not all easy money (come to think of it , none of it is easy )

:clap3: :clap3: :clap3: :clap3: :clap3: ALL STANDING:clap3: :clap3: :clap3: :clap3: :clap3:


Kind regards to you Sir,

OCB.

 

[David Caulfield]

You hit the nail right on the head.

As a manufacturer we are always faced with the decision whether to act on the rip off artists or let them be.

An example, we are in the process of concluding an action in Greece against an importer who is ripping of a range of Penn rods, and doing it VERY badly. They look the same, but are in weird line classes & lengths.

It will costs us 5 figures when we are finished, and protect less business than it costs, BUT, it protects our NAME.

This is different from the Gemini issue, but something I think ALL manfacturers will certainly defend - after all, without your established name, the rod is just a big, funny looking pointy stick!! One to remember, by all means buy the rip offs, but do not be surprised if the genuine manfacturers turn you away WHEN the rip offs fail.

Buy genuine, you know it makes sense Rodney!

 

[Edgey]

Problem all Patent holders have is having the cash to defend and protect the Patent.

The system is not fair, expensive and unless you are lucky or rich you will lose.

The other problem is they only last for 21 years and you have to pay the re-registration fees every year. If you run out of dosh, you are stuffed.

Same applies to defending it.

It does tend to re-assure venture/vulture capitalists, as generally you can get what is called first mover protection, I.E. you can flood the market with your product and get everyone buying it and form a brand, before the world fights you and takes over.

Sorry, boring old f**t, tired and emotional ex-patent holder and now advisor to businesses.

Byeee.

 

[tackhell]

Reminds me of the time when I bought a great rod from Terry Woods of ReelSport called the Longbeach. He told me he had to change the name because some legal outfit from Glasgow were all over him for infringing a Penn trademark. Like when did you last hear of a Penn Longbeach rod? Terry is a small, good NE UK dealer who creates great rods and gets a good gobbing on by some tackle giant. :blink:

As a manufacturer we are always faced with the decision whether to act on the rip off artists

Like Affinity is registered in Class 28 (including fishing rods) by King Par and God only knows how close this is to Daiwa's Infinity® mark

Funny old world is IP.

 

[David Caulfield]

Reminds me of the time when I bought a great rod from Terry Woods of ReelSport called the Longbeach. He told me he had to change the name because some legal outfit from Glasgow were all over him for infringing a Penn trademark. Like when did you last hear of a Penn Longbeach rod? Terry is a small, good NE UK dealer who creates great rods and gets a good gobbing on by some tackle giant. :blink:

As a manufacturer we are always faced with the decision whether to act on the rip off artists

Like Affinity is registered in Class 28 (including fishing rods) by King Par and God only knows how close this is to Daiwa's Infinity® mark

Funny old world is IP.

Yep, Longbeach first used in Class 28 as a reel in 1934 - in fact it was one of the first non "MOD" named reels built by Penn. Rods have come and gone over the following 70 odd years, of varying uses etc., but bearing the Longbeach name.

Penn Affinity is actually registered for Fishing Tackle and other items by Penn, and as the meaning of Affinity and Infinity are completely different, Trademark office had no problem in processing this for use across Europe.

As you say, funny old world is IP

 

[jack-the-kipper]

not relevant to sea fishing...but when i used to spend my time on the dark side of angling(carp :blink: )i submitted an idea to one or three big names in tackle,did'nt get any interest,could'nt afford any patent on it,just to see the same thing some ten years on being marketed by gardener tackle for xxx amount.
moral of the story is(as steve neville pointed out to me)don't submit ideas to the tackle trade without some kind of proof/patent that it's your idea.

 

[nomadfl]

These have been some interesting post, and as I mentioned on the d-vice post....you got to have deep pockets....there is only one winner....lawyers and solicitors, and talking about solicitors...this is from the word soliciting ...from the world's oldest profession.....:clap2: :clap3: :g: :uhuh:

 

[Ian Houlton]

Edgey hit it right on the head with the lack of money issue. I have a gizmo here that works pretty well, in fact it works a treat. Can i afford to have it machined, or pay for the tooling? no i could sit and make 1000's of them but manually it would take a hell of a long time. Tony Catton told me to do just that, make em, release em and take the first bite of the cherry. Send them to the mags? lost my faith there a touch recently i,m afraid. I may be having a word with David Gould soon i reckon. I do think the Dvice thing has a good future mind.

 

[Ian Houlton]

not relevant to sea fishing...but when i used to spend my time on the dark side of angling(carp :blink: )i submitted an idea to one or three big names in tackle,did'nt get any interest,could'nt afford any patent on it,just to see the same thing some ten years on being marketed by gardener tackle for xxx amount.
moral of the story is(as steve neville pointed out to me)don't submit ideas to the tackle trade without some kind of proof/patent that it's your idea.

I know a couple of them have seen it, one bloke turned up yesterday to look as i could not make it to them but i bloody well made sure they know it's mine first!

 

[jack-the-kipper]

steve neville (who makes s/steel roller alarms)advised me to photocopy any designs,send off the copy whilst at the first chance send the originals,dated etc via registered post to myself but leave them unopened,this might have some lee-way in a court....although it's not a dead cert.
money is the real issue,a patent in the uk would not stop copies from abroad,only a world=wide patent would suffice....mega cost.
to date,2 ideas i had back in the early 90's are now being produced by two companies who originally turned them down.
still that's life...lesson learned.

 

[OneCodBob]

With regard to this subject, I can speak from experience. I will only go so far as saying, that the world of business is very harsh and only hard ball players win.
If you gift these players with an Idea, they will TAKE it and run, you lose
If you begin a game and the players want to join in, you've got yourself a game of hard ball. Once you have established your game, you've got to be good at it to stay on top, and if you want to stay on top, you've got to stay ahead. The most important thing to remember is, its NO GAME!
There are one or two companys that do give honest, genuine advice, but they still play hard ball.
Good inventions are NOT lottery tickets, they are a cauldron full of ardour.

BEWARE!

OCB.

 

[fishyrob]

Tetrapak...... If ever there was one patent I wish I owned, it would be Tetrapak............

Anyhow, we have Edgey on side. He is both lucky and occasionally rich. Or is it drunk...... Cant remember now.............

 

[David Gould]

Ian ,
When you first get your idea mass produced there will be " production overrun " .
If that overrun is presented to the big boys ( by the manufacturer ) like K2 for instance ( they are holder of many a tackle name ) and they think it is a moneyrunner for them it will be 80 days or so till their copy/ modified product is in the hands of their reps and 100 days till it is in the tackle shops .
The same will happen but a bit slower if it is a "dogs pollacks " idea and enters the fishing mags columns where a Big wholesaler has employees to read and find possible new products for them ( cheaper than having expensive R&D depts .)
The special CNC turned soft ( cartridge brass) ferrules I had done in India seem to have gone this route but made of copper or aluminum and heavily pressed from a sheet rather than precision turned rod.The finish is not so good but on 80 lb line there is really little difference in the effect.

The big boys want ( like the majority of all businesses ) fast moving consumables with an ice cream and umbrella's selling take up
IE what slows when the sun don't shine is quickly taken up by what does .


So ... don't tie up so much money on your batch that you cannot afford to lose it or take a fair while to recoup it. Yet get as big a batch as you dare with the option of a quick repeat .... air freighted in if needed ( the big boys usually have a line of containers steadily flowing in every week or so from China/ India / Korea etc.

Allow five weeks transit inc. customs clearance from China if shipped in by sea container after goods are produced and around 30 days for the product to enter the factory production cycle plus a few days for your goods to be produced and packed up ...
Total time of about 80 days....... So if what you want producing are for cod then today is too late as in 80 days time they will be gone (sort of thing ).Plan your timing it is critical.


Regards David