[blueskip]

There are arguments for, & against, float switches to operate Automatic Bilge Pumps, & after the winter we have just had I am sure a lot of you have experiences of float switches not cutting in when they were needed. A recent gland leak caused a substantial amount of water to enter the engine compartment, & the float switch didn't work to operate the automatic bilge pump, & the leak & switch failure were only noticed when the engine hatch was opened!
The switches have been replaced, & the pumps are working again, & the stuffing box has been repacked & no more water is leaking in, BUT what if it happens again? What we want is a "Fit & Forget" automatic pump switch, is it better to fit a sensor switch, or just renew the float switches, & fit a manual test switch in the cabin to test they are working on a regular basis? Or would the best option be to fit new bilge pumps with built in sensor switches? :g:

 

[Salar]

There are arguments for, & against, float switches to operate Automatic Bilge Pumps, & after the winter we have just had I am sure a lot of you have experiences of float switches not cutting in when they were needed. A recent gland leak caused a substantial amount of water to enter the engine compartment, & the float switch didn't work to operate the automatic bilge pump, & the leak & switch failure were only noticed when the engine hatch was opened! The switches have been replaced, & the pumps are working again, & the stuffing box has been repacked & no more water is leaking in, BUT what if it happens again? What we want is a "Fit & Forget" automatic pump switch, is it better to fit a sensor switch, or just renew the float switches, & fit a manual test switch in the cabin to test they are working on a regular basis? Or would the best option be to fit new bilge pumps with built in sensor switches? :g:

I had the same dilemma, the most reliable seems to be the pump with the built in sensor. No connections to worry about.

 

[blueskip]

I had the same dilemma, the most reliable seems to be the pump with the built in sensor. No connections to worry about.

A 38ft Blythe Catamaran would 650GPH be "men enough" for something that size??:2:

 

[17839]

A 38ft Blythe Catamaran would 650GPH be "men enough" for something that size??:2:

Would all depend on the size of the leak Vic
I think I am right in thinking that Oystercat is not coded ?
One of the commercials might be able to confirm but if it were a coded vessel I think the regs are that you would need more than one pump & they would need to be of a certain GPH & that that would be more than 650GPH.
As it is not coded (I think) then really unless there is some specific clause in your insurance regarding bilge pump numbers & capacity you could fit anything.
One thing to bear in mind though is that a 650GPH pump, due to the head it has to pump to & frictional losses within the pipe work between pump & the skin fittting the water exits from, will not actually pump out 650GPH & may be as low as a third of its stated capacity depending on head height & pipe run.
If it were me (& there were no specific criteria set out) I would fit 2 pumps in the bilge (in case 1 fails) to start with & both would be bigger capacity than 650GPH.
Someone like Ron would be able to tell you what the coding regs would require or have a word with one of your local charter skippers but to give you an idea, if I remember correctly, when a local charter cat was fitted out for coding the other year it needed 2 x of around 2,000GPH pumps in each bilge plus either 2 or 4 additional pumps in under deck areas.
I am pretty sure that your cat is not coded but the above is just to give an idea what is required on a commercial boat carrying fare paying members of the public.
Oystercat falls into a bit of a grey area (I think) as it dosen"t carry the public rather only club members & as such is probably deemed the same as a privately owned leisure boat ?

headlight

 

[blueskip]

Would all depend on the size of the leak Vic
I think I am right in thinking that Oystercat is not coded ?
One of the commercials might be able to confirm but if it were a coded vessel I think the regs are that you would need more than one pump & they would need to be of a certain GPH & that that would be more than 650GPH.
As it is not coded (I think) then really unless there is some specific clause in your insurance regarding bilge pump numbers & capacity you could fit anything.
One thing to bear in mind though is that a 650GPH pump, due to the head it has to pump to & frictional losses within the pipe work between pump & the skin fittting the water exits from, will not actually pump out 650GPH & may be as low as a third of its stated capacity depending on head height & pipe run.
If it were me (& there were no specific criteria set out) I would fit 2 pumps in the bilge (in case 1 fails) to start with & both would be bigger capacity than 650GPH.
Someone like Ron would be able to tell you what the coding regs would require or have a word with one of your local charter skippers but to give you an idea, if I remember correctly, when a local charter cat was fitted out for coding the other year it needed 2 x of around 2,000GPH pumps in each bilge plus either 2 or 4 additional pumps in under deck areas.
I am pretty sure that your cat is not coded but the above is just to give an idea what is required on a commercial boat carrying fare paying members of the public.
Oystercat falls into a bit of a grey area (I think) as it dosen"t carry the public rather only club members & as such is probably deemed the same as a privately owned leisure boat ?

headlight

In both compartments but of course if the leak is in one, the pump in the other one cant help, I don't know what the GPH capacity of the existing pumps are, all I know is that when water came in through the gland last week, the ABP didn't work to remove it, & with no sign of water being pumped out, nobody was aware that it was coming in.
The 2 problems have now been resolved, but I was simply asking about fitting sensor switches, instead of float switches (if they were considered to be more reliable) However it appears that the sensor switches only come attached to new bilge pumps, which if it needed 2 x 2000 GPH capacity would probably cost a kings ransom.
The easiest answer would probably be to wire both pumps to manual "test" switches in the wheelhouse, so that occasionally they can be switched on, to ensure that if, & when, needed, they are going to work.
I was under the impression that the sensor switches could be used as an alternative to float switches, nonononono I should have known it wouldn't be THAT simple, cos its to do with boats!:doh:

 

[deepseadavy]

Hi Blueskip,how are you getting on with the ballast in the other boat?


Dave

 

[dean_gifford]

A little more context to this:

As Vic has said - our packing gland was leaking water, normally our bilge pump would take care of this, but our bilge float switch didn't turn on the pump.

As for the details of the pumps -
In each engine well we have Attwood Heavy Duty 1700 2000gph pumps each is rigged up to its own Mailspeed mairne bilge alarm for float switch using Rule-A-Matic float switches as described below. We also have hand operated bilge pumps in both engine wells as per usual - the boat was built to COP2, we do all we can to keep her to these standards and voluntarily adhere to the same inspection by appropriate bodies as the charter fleet do - its just a little cheaper for us as we don't have to pay for the certificate at the end of the inspection.

We have 2 float switches one High Water alarm then 4inchs higher the auto bilge on /off switch.
after removing the switches yesterday we found that the Alarm switch was slightly damaged which explains why that wasn't working, the on off switch appeared to be caked in gunk - due to the weather the boat had been sitting for a couple of weeks so guessing thats possibly just a product of the deck recently being repainted and crud getting into the bilge some how and as the boat hasn't been used that cruds been able to build up.

Something we are following up with blyth about is why the switches are set up in the way they are - and I'd like to put this question out to you guys also.

Since we've had the boat - the bottom switch has been a high water alarm - then 3/4inchs higher is the actual on / off switch for the pump.
In my head it seems more logical to have them the other way around - i.e. pump works on getting the water out - if the water continues to rise then the alarm is sounded?

But I do see it from the other side also that you need to know when there is water in the bilge - so surely it makes more sense for both the alarm and the pump switches to be on the same level?

 

[blueskip]

A little more context to this:

As Vic has said - our packing gland was leaking water, normally our bilge pump would take care of this, but our bilge float switch didn't turn on the pump.

As for the details of the pumps -
In each engine well we have Attwood Heavy Duty 1700 2000gph pumps each is rigged up to its own Mailspeed mairne bilge alarm for float switch using Rule-A-Matic float switches as described below. We also have hand operated bilge pumps in both engine wells as per usual - the boat was built to COP2, we do all we can to keep her to these standards and voluntarily adhere to the same inspection by appropriate bodies as the charter fleet do - its just a little cheaper for us as we don't have to pay for the certificate at the end of the inspection.

We have 2 float switches one High Water alarm then 4inchs higher the auto bilge on /off switch.
after removing the switches yesterday we found that the Alarm switch was slightly damaged which explains why that wasn't working, the on off switch appeared to be caked in gunk - due to the weather the boat had been sitting for a couple of weeks so guessing thats possibly just a product of the deck recently being repainted and crud getting into the bilge some how and as the boat hasn't been used that cruds been able to build up.

Something we are following up with blyth about is why the switches are set up in the way they are - and I'd like to put this question out to you guys also.

Since we've had the boat - the bottom switch has been a high water alarm - then 3/4inchs higher is the actual on / off switch for the pump.
In my head it seems more logical to have them the other way around - i.e. pump works on getting the water out - if the water continues to rise then the alarm is sounded?

But I do see it from the other side also that you need to know when there is water in the bilge - so surely it makes more sense for both the alarm and the pump switches to be on the same level?

That with the alarm going off first, you are alerted that there is a problem with water getting in so you can find a remedy before too much gets in there. In this case it would have given you chance to turn off one engine tighten the gland packing & away to go. In a worst case scenario you could shove something into a hole to stem the flow before the pump cuts in? There are merits to both scenarios, but like you I would like to know sooner rather than later that water is getting in, in fact the earlier the better!:help:

 

[blueskip]

Hi Blueskip,how are you getting on with the ballast in the other boat?


Dave

That is going to be a looooooooooong story, we have researched the conversion history of these boats, & the ones that perform best seems to be the ones that have been converted to houseboats on rivers & canals, & have therefore kept their tops. Those that have lost their tops have been well ballasted to keep the prop & steering tube well under water (some have had the tube removed & had rudders fitted).
We have decided to put 6 bums in the stern section & see how she reacts to the helm & throttle with them sat there, if this solves the problem then that will be the order of the day, everybody sits in the stern until we get to our mark, then they can disperse around the entire boat, when we go to lift the anchor with the Alderney Ring everybody to the stern so we get "prop bite" to run up against the tide. We can solve this problem quite logically really, plus I have managed to source 6 x 56lb weights which is equivalent to 2 x 12st men, those stowed in the stern will help too. Have no fear "We shall overcome" lol

 

[17839]

A little more context to this:

As Vic has said - our packing gland was leaking water, normally our bilge pump would take care of this, but our bilge float switch didn't turn on the pump.

As for the details of the pumps -
In each engine well we have Attwood Heavy Duty 1700 2000gph pumps each is rigged up to its own Mailspeed mairne bilge alarm for float switch using Rule-A-Matic float switches as described below. We also have hand operated bilge pumps in both engine wells as per usual - the boat was built to COP2, we do all we can to keep her to these standards and voluntarily adhere to the same inspection by appropriate bodies as the charter fleet do - its just a little cheaper for us as we don't have to pay for the certificate at the end of the inspection.

We have 2 float switches one High Water alarm then 4inchs higher the auto bilge on /off switch.
after removing the switches yesterday we found that the Alarm switch was slightly damaged which explains why that wasn't working, the on off switch appeared to be caked in gunk - due to the weather the boat had been sitting for a couple of weeks so guessing thats possibly just a product of the deck recently being repainted and crud getting into the bilge some how and as the boat hasn't been used that cruds been able to build up.

Something we are following up with blyth about is why the switches are set up in the way they are - and I'd like to put this question out to you guys also.

Since we've had the boat - the bottom switch has been a high water alarm - then 3/4inchs higher is the actual on / off switch for the pump.
In my head it seems more logical to have them the other way around - i.e. pump works on getting the water out - if the water continues to rise then the alarm is sounded?

But I do see it from the other side also that you need to know when there is water in the bilge - so surely it makes more sense for both the alarm and the pump switches to be on the same level?

Dean I was just going on what Vic said "would 650GPH be "men enough" for something that size??" which gave the impression (to me anyway) that each bilge had a 650GPH pump.

headlight

 

[blueskip]

Dean I was just going on what Vic said "would 650GPH be "men enough" for something that size??" which gave the impression (to me anyway) that each bilge had a 650GPH pump.

headlight

"Man enough" if they were wired in parallel with the 2 x 2000GPH existing main pumps, then the sensor on the Whale Supersub 650 pumps, could be used as the sensors for the 2000GPH main pumps, probably competitively priced at £41 each on E-Bay they would be cheaper than replacing the float switches from the local chandlers. Seeing as the wiring had to be redone to the new float switches, there would be little or no extra wiring costs, plus there would be 2 extra bilge pumps.:bleh:

 

[17839]

"Man enough" if they were wired in parallel with the 2 x 2000GPH existing main pumps, then the sensor on the Whale Supersub 650 pumps, could be used as the sensors for the 2000GPH main pumps, probably competitively priced at £41 each on E-Bay they would be cheaper than replacing the float switches from the local chandlers. Seeing as the wiring had to be redone to the new float switches, there would be little or no extra wiring costs, plus there would be 2 extra bilge pumps.:bleh:

Obviously I wasn"t aware of any of the above as none of it was mentioned previously :bleh:

headlight

 

[blueskip]

Obviously I wasn"t aware of any of the above as none of it was mentioned previously :bleh:

headlight

Views on the benefits of sensor switches, over float switches, (if the were any).

 

[Clinker]

A float switch can get stuck in the on position if something floats under it, on the other hand a sensor can become dirty and not come on - the latter is easier to prevent, especially on a boat used by various people, where the duty of keeping the bilges clear may well be passed from person to person!

I've only had a sensor, so this is speaking from theory on the float option.

 

[Salar]

In my previous boat I had a float switch until it failed to float after about 17 years. I replaced it with a sensor switch, which seemed to work but was more difficult to test, it needed a soggy cloth pressed on the face. I would prefer a sensor as there is less to go wrong, but I wish there was a better way of testing it, or maybe I am just old fashioned and like to see things moving to be sure they are working

 

[Clinker]

I just chuck a bucket of water into the bilge to test it - test the pump is working off the manual switch first though to check I'm not stuck with the bucketful of water!

 

[blueskip]

In my previous boat I had a float switch until it failed to float after about 17 years. I replaced it with a sensor switch, which seemed to work but was more difficult to test, it needed a soggy cloth pressed on the face. I would prefer a sensor as there is less to go wrong, but I wish there was a better way of testing it, or maybe I am just old fashioned and like to see things moving to be sure they are working

Are available as a "stand alone" item? I have looked all over the usual places for them, but they are either totally useless for our purpose, or they come attached to a bilge pump. Having experienced a situation where a bilge pump failed to work because of a float switch malfunction, I thought a sensor switch with no moving parts to go wrong would be a better option. I SHOULD HAVE KNOWN BETTER! :boxing:

 

[Salar]

Are available as a "stand alone" item?

Yes, although the model I bought was from the USA. This one is UK based
Whale Electric Bilge Switch - Float Switches - Discount Marine Chandlery and Sailing Equipment. Bargain Boat Spares and Clothing